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The Woman & The Male Child

As the title suggests, this post is in regards to the woman and male child of Revelation chapter 12.  As usual, there seems to be confusion as to who both of these represent.  There are those that would have us believe that the woman represents the church, but God’s word does not support this assumption.   

“A great and wonderous sign appeared in heaven:  a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.” (Rev.12:1)

Whenever there is  symbolism in the book of Revelation, the meaning is either revealed within the book of Revelation itself or can be found elsewhere in God’s word. The identity of the woman is made very clear, as it is revealed  in  Joseph’s dream found in Genesis 37:9-10.

“Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. “Listen,” he said, ” I had another dream, and this time the sun, moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.” When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, “What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I  and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

Here Joseph tells his father Jacob and his brothers the dream that he had and thereby reveals the identity of the woman of Revelation 12. She is said to be clothed with the [Sun], with the [moon] under her feet and a crown of [twelve stars].  Jacob, in responding to Joseph’s dream, reveals the symbolism of the sun being Jacob himself, the moon representing his wives and the eleven stars representing his brothers or eleven of the twelve tribes of Israel, Joseph being the twelfth star.  Therefore, the woman in chapter twelve of Revelation collectively represents the nation Israel. 

“The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with and iron scepter. And her child was snatched up to God and to his throne.”

Regarding the dragon, there are seperate symbolic meanings for the heads, horns and crowns, which  are revealed in Revelation 17, but the dragon here is also revealed as Satan in Revelation 12:9.  In the verse above, the woman gives birth to a male son and the dragon is standing before the woman ready to devour her child the moment it is  born.  Since we have already seen that the woman represents Israel and the dragon is representing Satan, he is  standing before Israel waiting for her to give birth, which begs the question, who is the nation Israel giving birth to?

Many have interpreted the male child as, the Lord Jesus, but upon closer inspection, the context does not support this assumption. It is said that,  Satan is standing before Israel waiting  to devour her child the moment that it is born, but as stated in the verse, the child is snatched up to God and his throne before Satan can devour it.  The words “snatched up” are translated from the word “Harpazo,” which is the same word used to describe the living in Christ who are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of eye and “Caught up” right after the resurrection takes place described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16. The word denotes “force suddenly exercised” or to be “snatched away.” It is the same word used to describe paul when he was “Caught up” to the third heaven and  when the Spirit “caught away” Phillip from the Eunuch.  The idea is of being suddenly taken away by force and therefore, this male child is snatched up to God’s throne while still alive and is most likely changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye just as in the description of the church in 1 Thes.4:16. 

Furthrermore, it is said that the dragon is waiting to devour the child, but is unable to because it is snatched up to God’s throne.  This being the case, Jesus cannot be in view here as the male child. First of all, the dragon is waiting to devour (destroy) the child, but he is thwarted because the male child is snatched up to God’s throne, which shows that he escapes the dragon, while in contrast, Jesus was crucified, which would infer the opposite of escaping, that is, his being crucified would show in the symbolism that he was devoured by the dragon. 

Second, in contrast to the male child being “snatched up” to God’s throne, Jesus was resurrected. The word translated “resurrected” is the word “Anastasis, ” which means “a standing up again” and always refers to the dead.  Therefore, the male child is seen as twarting Satan by being snatched up to God’s throne without being devoured, whereas Jesus was crucified and after three days resurrected.

Who then is the woman/Israel giving birth to ? The main characteristic of the child that Israel gives birth to is that it is a “Male.” 

“And they sang a new song before the thone and before the four living creatures and the elders.  No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women,  for they kept themselves pure.”

This group of 144,000 are the same group that were sealed while on the earth with the seal of God in their foreheads in Revelation chapter 7.  Here in Revelation chapter 14, they are seen  with Christ on the mount Zion of heaven. The verse above states that they did not defile themselves with “Women”, which would infer that these 144,000 are all male, ergo the  “Male Child.”  Here in Revelation chapter 14, the 144,000 are shown here after they have been snatched up to God’s throne.

Who are 144,000? As we have seen, Israel gives birth to them, that is, the 144,000 come out of Israel. Imagine a whole pie and the pie represents the nation Israel and just for the sake of this illustration let’s say that the pie represents one million Israelites. Now, cut out a slice of that pie to  represent the 144,000 that comes out of Israel, that is, those she gives birth to.   

What is the meaning that Israel “gives birth” to them? In Rev. 14:4 it is stated:

“They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb.”

The meaning of them being offered as “first fruits” is that, these 144,000 are a select group that come out of  Israel, who by the grace of God come to the knowledge that Jesus is in fact their Messiah, ergo gives birth to. And of them it is said, they follow the Lamb wherever he goes.

To recap, the woman is the nation Israel and she gives birth to a male child which is a collective designation for the 144,000 that come to the knowledge that Jesus is their Messiah, they are snatched up to God’s throne and the rest of the nation Israel, who have still not confessed that Jesus is the Christ, flee into the wilderness (desolation) where they are cared for by God for 3 1/2 years up until Jesus returns. I believe that sometime prior to Jesus returning, the woman will also come to the knowledge that Jesus is their Messiah, else why would God care for them and keep them through the great tribulation period? Along with the remainder of the tribulation saints, Israel will go into the millennial kingdom in their mortal to repopulate the earth.

Thank you for reading my post. My prayer for you is that God would bless you and strengthen you in your faith, for faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.

For those of you who have not yet believed in Christ, I pray that God will reveal the truth of His word and confirm it in your hearts by His Holy Spirit. Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, for whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.

Yours In Christ

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125 Responses to “The Woman & The Male Child”

  1. While I concur with the symbol of the woman in Rev 12 as being the nation of Israel and the dragon being Satan, I disagree with the male child being the 144,000 that were sealed.

    If you look at Rev 12: 3, 5 carefully it describes God’s historical account of why we are at this point in God’s plan for the redemption of man. Gen 3: 15 describes the power of Christ over the Dragon, paying close attention to the term ‘seed’ being unconventionally referred to a woman rather than a man, the woman in this case being Mary since Christ was spiritually conceived.

    As a side note, the 144,000 sealed are not stated as being an all male grouping. When the term defile themselves with women it is in reference to the female character being idols and not literal women. Pay attention to the tribal listing in Rev 7 and notice that the tribe of Dan is not mentioned. Scripture tells us that the tribe of Dan was notorious for idolatry Gen 49: 16, 17 and Jud 17 and 18.

    Returning to the substantive discussion, notice that Rev 12: 4 describes Satan and his minions attempt to usurp God’s power and were cast down. Stars being a common reference to angels. This is further clarified in verses 7, 9.

    In Rev 12: 6 what is being described here is in direct relation to the abomination of desolation in Matt 24: 15. The woman (Israel) is being instructed to flee to a prepared impregnable place where she will be nourished for 1260 days or 3 1/2 years or exactly at mid-trib where the very act of the abomination of desolation would herald the latter half called the great tribulation.

    The 144,000 sealed are indeed Jews that are dwelling in different regions of the world. Bear in mind that the nation of Israel was the only scattered nation in history that dwelt in foreign lands even up to this day. These Jews would be familiar with their habitat’s customs, languages etc and therefore are perfect for God’s plan to witness to mankind for the first half of tribulation.

    • Greetings!

      Thank you for responding to my post. You obviously are someone who studies the word, which is good because there seems to be a lack of that these days.
      But in reference to the “male child,” I also at one time believed that this was in representation of Christ, but after years of further study, I found this
      to be incorrect. Since the verse specifies that the 144,000 are those who did not defile themselves with “women” and the context does not support that
      “women” here is symbolic for “idols,” I then have to maintain my belief that the reference is to literal women and therefore, since they are those who will not
      defile themselves with women, it infers that they are all men, which is giving us a clue that they are the male child. Also, as I said in my post, Jesus could not be the male child
      as he would have in fact have been devoured by the dragon, seeing that he was crucified. Where as with the male child, he is “caught up” to God’s throne
      before the dragon can cause any harm to him whatsoever. Regarding this male child “Harpazo” is taking place just as with the church being “caught up,” where as Jesus
      was not caught up, but resurrected.

      Rev.12:1 – The mention of the sun, moon and twelve stars, being the characteristics of the woman, collectively represent Israel, ergo, the woman represents Israel.
      Rev.12:4 – The flinging of the stars (angels) to the earth is a short summarization of the detailed account in Rev.12:7 of the war that takes place between
      Michael and his angels verses Satan and his. There is nothing in the context that would lead us to believe that Satan and his angels are trying to
      usurp God’s power, which would be futile to even think about, but it is because they are finally being cast out so that he can no longer
      accuse the brothers (saints) day and night before God (Rev.12:10). This casting out of Satan and his angels to the earth is actually the “Third Woe” of the
      three woes that are listed, which I believe are all demonic in nature, which is why they are in fact designated as woes.

      Rev.12:13-17 – Satan goes after the woman and sends a flood (army) after her, but God helps the woman by opening the earth up to swallow them.
      The woman is cared for for by God from the middle of the seven year period up until the end of the age when Christ returns, which is 3 1/2 years later.
      When he can’t get the woman, he goes to make war against the rest of her seed, which I believe is in reference to the tribulation saints
      mentioned in Rev.13:7, which says: “He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.”

      Either of our views could be correct, but I guess we won’t find out until later. So, what are your views on those who claim that the Mark of the beast is
      the observance of the sabbath on Sunday? I’m sure that you must have run into them? I have been going around in circles with these people about this
      and no matter how much scripture I give in support of a literal mark in the right hand or forehead for the purpose of buying and selling, they maintain that
      the right hand is symbolic for “action” and the forehead is symbolic for “The mind” as in making a descision. Even showing them the subdermal chip technology
      that is and has been developed for the very purpose of crediting and debiting ones bank account, just as with the POS system, they still hold to a symbolic meaning.
      In fact, they have so much confidence in their symbolic belief that they said, they would be willing to receive a computer chip under the skin for the purpose making
      purchases and just cited it as technology and that it has nothing to do with the mark of the beast. So, they believe that the mark of the beast is going to be the beast
      forcing the inhabitants of the world to observe the sabbath on Sunday. Pretty amazing since Jesus said that the sabbath was made for man and not man for the
      sabbath, yet they have our eternal life hinging on it. I couldn’t get them to understand that by receiving the mark, one would be aligning himself with the beast and
      thereby worshiping him.

      Thanks again and I look forward to hearing from you.

      Yours in Christ – Don

  2. Peace of Christ be with you Don,

    Finally I have someone worthy to discuss Eschatology with. God be praised, I pray that others would join in or even learn the spiritual value of having healthy discussions regarding God’s written word that He gave to us to grow in wisdom of Him. 1 Cor 1:10-11
    10 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment.

    Paul did not say that brothers should not have difference of opinions, he stated that there should be no division among brothers as to our belonging to Christ alone. I respect your point of view regarding the ‘male child’ being the 144,000 but I’m not one to give up that easily (smile).

    Regarding your views and quarry on the mark of the beast (666), I have a belief of what it represents but first one must understand that I study the Bible using the following principles:

    1. Who is the text being addressed to (Jew or Gentile)?
    2. Is the text literal or symbolic?
    3. If the literal text makes common sense, accept it for what it is.
    4. If the text is symbolic, search out and reference the harmonizing text.
    5. Where possible, identify ‘types’.
    6. Interpret all texts in its respective context.

    That being said, my understanding of the mark of the beast – 666 starts with who is John targeting with this scripture? I have concluded that it is the nation of Israel or Jews. Jer 30:7 7 ‘Alas! for that day is great, There is none like it; And it is the time of Jacob’s distress, But he will be saved from it.

    I conclude that the text is literal and it represents the numerical value of the beast’s name. Scripture clearly states the beast is a man to the world and not a day.

    Under the Jewish system of placing a numerical value to their alphabet system they number the first 10 letters of their alphabet 1-10, the second set is numbered 20-100, and the final set 200-400. The beast’s name would most definitely total 666, however the Jewish translation of the name must first be determined e.g. the Spanish name Jesus is translated to Yeshua in Hebrew.

    In Jewish appreciation of the seriousness of something, repetition is considered somewhat pleasing as well as confirmation on the firmest position. In our culture we use a graduated form like good, better, best and have no appreciation for repetition. In Jewish culture if you mean something you say it once 6, if you truly mean it, you say it twice 66, if there is absolutely no doubt in your mind that this is the firmest view of what you mean, you say it three times 666. The number 6 was chosen to represent the beast because the number 7 represents the completeness of God while 6 would represent the devil, to go further from 7 would spell an infinite number.

    So we have come to the point where the beast is represented by the number 666 and it would be the numerical value of the beast’s name. It is confirmed under Jewish customs being repeated 3 times and therefore no other value would be accepted. The mark of the beast conclusively is 666 and not Sunday worship as suggested by certain religions.

    The issue of the Sabbath was fulfilled just as the other laws by Christ’s work on the cross. He was the fulfillment of the law, while observing the sabbath is not expressly forbidden, it is incumbent on what the Holy Spirit puts on the individual’s heart to do. Some people consider Saturday to be the sabbath, while others consider Sunday. The fact of the matter is that any day can be considered as the sabbath. Col 2:16-17 16 Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day — 17 things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.

    I wager that Sunday sabbath from scriptures is not sinful in itself so that thwarts their argument of Sunday worship being the mark of the beast. The text itself is literal and not symbolic, there are only two ways things exist in the world – God’s way or the Devil’s way, granted the devil may break up his way into millions of pieces by the time you get round to realizing that you were wrong it may be too late. One such way may very well be as you suggested.

    Christians must understand that the enemy, if given the chance would prosper in his lies for he is the father of lies there is no truth in him. In the early days of the Christian movement the church was under constant persecution by the devil. This persecution only resulted in the growth of the church rather than the demise. Don’t underestimate the devil for he knows the other way is to infiltrate the church and destroy it from within rather than through failed persecution.

    After all the anti-christ himself would purport to be Christ, doing things that are Christ like even unto proclaiming himself to be a god. He would be like a lamb until the abomination of desolation takes place. If Christians are not careful they would neglect to understand scriptures and take the mark of the beast. Revelation tells of people being sealed by God but the number was stated as 144,000. The book has another sealing of sorts which is the mark of the beast which does not have a specific number. All we can do is pray that God puts it on their hearts that they are misinformed and bring them to understanding. I would much rather know the truth rather than being right!

    In grace,
    Wesley

  3. Greetings Wesley!

    Your approach to interpretation is pretty much the same as my approach and that is:

    “If the literal sense makes good sense, then don’t seek any other sense.”

    It is fraustrating to see these people out there, in their interpretaion of the book of Revelation, symbolizing everthing. When you symbolize what is meant to be literally, then the meaning is lost. I take everything at face value, that is, literally unless a symbolic interpretation is required. I suppose at first, those who read this book would find it confusing, but it becomes clearer the more one studies it, especially when you study the related books and verses.

    I believe that God rewards those with spiritual insite, who diligently study his word to find out the deeper meanings. I have found people who have labeled Revelation as Hyperbole, poetic and symbolic, which is non-sense! For sure, there is symbolism in Revelation, but that symbolisim will either be revealed in the book of Revelation itself or elsewhere in God’s word.

    The woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and with a crown of twelve stars is a perfect example of symbolism. God gives us the answer found in Joseph’s dream of Gen.37:9-10. But, then there are those who continue to try to make “the woman” the church, when the church is not even in view here. They also try to make Israel the church, but I believe that the nation Israel is the nation Israel and the church is the church. They are seperate groups, just as are the 144,000 and the saints that come out of the great tribulation period.

    Now another example of symbolisim can be found in the beast with seven heads and ten horns. In this case, the meaning of the symbolism is revealed within revelation itself in Chapter 17:9.

    Regarding the mark of the beast, have you seen what is going on? That is, having you been keeping tabs on the technology that is leading up to this mark? I have been watching this technology ever since the first ATM machines came out 30 years ago. I knew at that time that this technology would have relevance to that mark. At first, you could only withdraw cash from the ATM and then as time and technology progressed, we started seeing POS (point of Sale) systems popping up in the seven elevens, fast-food restaurants, grocery stores, gas stations, etc. Then they came out with the key fobs, where you can just wave it in front of the scanner and have your bank account automatically debited. Several years ago, they manufactured the prototype that will be used for the mark of the beast, which is an RFID chip (Radio Frequency Identification), which is to go under the skin (subdermal) for purpose of making purchases. This device is currently being used in the Barcelona Baja Surf club. They get the chip inplanted, which allows them to buy their drinks and with a wave of their hand over the counter, the amount of the drink is debited to their bank account. Sound familiar? The very fact that we have something being manufactured to go under the skin should send up biblical red flags. The problem is that too many christians to not study God’s word. They don’t even know what is going on!

    Currently, you go into Home Depot or Ikea and bring your purchases through a self checkout line, where you scan the barcode yourself and when your done scanning, you swipe your debit card and viola, you account is debited. The technology for the mark will use the same principle, you scan you products, wave your computer chip, either right hand or forehead and your bank account will be debited. Regarding Rev.13:16 where it states:

    “He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name”

    Well, I believe that that way in which he, the false prophet forces them to receive it, is because currently we have serveral methods of purchasing that run parallel and those being cash, check, credit, debit, money order, etc. Well, at some point around the middle of that last seven years, which is the beginning of the great tribulation, he is going to make all of those other methods of buying and selling obsolete, so that the only method left will be the mark. Therefore, he forces them because, that mark will be the only way to do business. Just the same as the debit card is done via computer transaction, so it will be the same with the mark and therefore, if one does not have the mark, he will not be able to credit and debit his account (buying and selling). Not only that, but they will be enemies of the beast, the false prophet and those who worship him, outcasts! I don’t know where you stand on the timing of the resurrection and catching away, but I believe that the Lord, according to my studies, will come to raise the dead in him and catch us up prior to these things taking place, as well as prior to the wrath of God, which are the seals, trumpets and bowl judgements.

    I’m with you, I would rather know the truth than to be stubbron and hold on to my own interpretation. I could respect them if they said, “this is my interpretation, but if I begin to see people receiving these chips under their skin for the purpose of making purchases, then I will not receive it just to make sure to cover my bases in case I’m wrong.” I could respect that, but since those who believe that the mark of the beast is the observance of the sabbath on Sunday and they said that they would “gladly” receive a chip under the skin, I think that this is foolishness and dangerous! Why would anyone do exactly what the word of God warns against for the sake of their interpretation?

    Yours in Christ – Don

  4. Peace be with you Don,

    I had some literature on the RFID chip a while back, I think that it was manufactured by Motorola and was in use in twelve countries since 2005/06 if I remember correctly. I would agree that some form of today’s technology or an improvement on said technology will be adopted for the purpose of the mark of the beast at his appointed time of power. The bible does not limit our thinking in this regard so I believe that we should be ever alert and keep up-to-date with what is happening the world over on a daily basis.

    The church today is literally in the apostasy age or the age of the 7th church judging from what is happening with the institution as it exists in many forms, cultures and beliefs. I don’t believe that all who attend church or who is a part of some religious group are believers or Christians. If they were, then there would be no altar calls! I would wager when the rapture takes place many of the churches will be bursting at the seams with members, in particular the prosperity ministries. My friend, no one seeks after God not one, I believe that God calls the ones He has chosen even before creation to faith and it is the called who mostly seeks to grow in knowledge of their creator. If it is God’s will that there be people who would fall by the wayside then we must honor God’s sovereignty in all things and be ever thankful that our names were written in the book of life. We should pray unceasingly for God’s grace and purpose to find our lives as well as lives of others.

    Recently my wife and I listened to a round table discussion on Eschatology with 4 senior pastors probably with over 100 years of combined experience, some of them had their doctorate in bible theology and were teaching scriptures. Don, I was blown away by how wrong they were about the end times; pre-millennialist, a-millennialist and post-millennialist all having a different view and all being so very wrong. One of them even claimed that the woman of Rev 12 was the church, another claimed that Christ’s millennial reign was on going in heaven, another believe that AD 70 events were it for revelations. I guess having a doctorate does not make you smart or right.

    Any how, I am anxious to get back into our discussion about the ‘male child’ and I have a few questions for you regarding your beliefs.

    1. Why the term ‘male child’ and not sons of God, a phrase that is used by Paul?
    2. Christ was resurrected, while the 144,000 were caught up, the bible tells us in 1 Thess 4:13-18 13 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brethren, about those who are asleep, so that you will not grieve as do the rest who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who have fallen asleep in Jesus. 15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice ofthe archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words. The term caught up translated from raptuos (Greek) and later rapio (Latin Vulgate) and to raptured. Is it not stated that the dead will rise first then those who believe and are alive would be given a new body or resurrected? This event is called the first resurrection!

    The 144,000 were not yet sealed nor did their witnessing begin nor were they martyred at this point, so how are they caught up?

    Who is the dragon waging war against in Rev 12: 7?

    I’ ll stop there for now as I am sure that we would have a healthy, spirit filled discussion on this issue which may very well lead to a greater understanding for both of us. In everything I humbly give all glory to my savior Christ Jesus.

    In grace,

    Wesley

  5. Good day Wesley!

    It is amazing that you should mention that about the scholars, for I came to the same conclusion, and that is, God’s word is for everyone, not just scolars, In fact, I think their positions as scolars gets in the way of knowing the truth of God’s word. I recently bought a book by Tim Lahaye called “Revelation Unveiled” and I started out excited to read it, because I hope to find others who have come to the same truths that have, but once I began to read, it turned into a critiquing and I began to highlight everything that was incorrect in that book and there was a lot. So, I made a windows document of everything he had written and then my comment after the verse. I was gonna send it to him, but what would be the point. He would do better to continue writting the fictional books. Just as an example, he cited the mention of the 144,00 of Rev.7 and Rev.14 as two different groups of 144,000 and because the book of life is also referred to as the “Book of life belonging to the Lamb” that they were two seperate books! And he has a doctorate!

    I don’t care about their positions as scholars, I will make the decision based on what I read or hear on whether or not they know the word of God.

    Yes, you are correct in that God is Sovereign and that everyone who would come to God throughout all history is because their names where written in His book of life before the world began. Regarding those whom God called His word says the following:

    “For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firtborn among many brothers. And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he aslo glorified.”

    I’m sure that you have already done your study on these words “foreknew and predestined,” which infers a preknowing and a preplanning by God ahead of time of those who he was going to call, justify and glorify. (Rom.8:28-30)

    His word also says the following:

    “The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and will come up out of the Abyss and go to his destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the boook of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because he once was, now is not, and yet will come.”

    Here the context reveals that there were names that were not written in the book of life from the creation of the world, which would infer that, somewhere in eternity, before the world began names were written in the God’s book, but for these people mentioned here, their names were not written. This was another thing that Tim Lahaye wrote and he said, when every person who comes into the world, their names are written in the book of life and if they have not received Christ before they died, then their names are blotted out. Of course, as we both know and just read, the word of God does not support this.

    So, for those whose names were not written in the book of life, God will never draw them to his Son. As it is written, “No man comes to the Son except the Father draw him.” It is the God’s decision. Also, it is written, “I will have mercy on whom , and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.” If God did not call us, neither could we have come, but thanks be to God he did, because it would be a terrible thing to fall into the hands of the living God! We deserve death, but he gives us life through his Son. Praise be to God Almighty for his grace and his mercy!

    In regards to those senior pastors regarding the woman being the church and that AD 70 was the fulfillment of Revelation, I hear and read this all the time. I believe that they do not have the Spirit of God, else the Holy Spirit would have lead them to the same truth that God has revealed to us as well as many others. I have always had a zealeousness for the accuracy of the word of God and so, I am ready to contend for the accuracy of God’s word when I hear people teaching these interpretations.

    Regarding our discussion, I will post your questions and then give my response:

    1. Why the term ‘male child’ and not sons of God, a phrase that is used by Paul?

    First, we have to remember that John is writing down all that he sees and hears as instructed by the Lord in Rev.1:19 and so the term “Male Child” is exactly how God wanted it to appear in the book of revelation. I believe that the term “Sons of God” applies to all of us who are in Christ. For those who are in Christ Jesus have become the Sons of God. But this group is a seperate group from the church as well as from the tribulation saints. These are the first fruits to God out of Israel. I believe that the reason the term “Male Child” is used, is to point us to that verse regarding the 144,000 which says “They did not defile themselves with women”, which would give us the clue that they are going to be all “Males” and that we who are reading his word would make the conection. That combined with that fact that this group willl be “caught up” to God’s throne, tells me that this could not be referring to Jesus, because Jesus was not caught up, but crucified and then resurrected. So, as I said, I believe that the phrase “they did not defile themselves with women” is literal and that the 144,000 are all male Israelites, 12,000 from each tribe.

    #2 “The term caught up translated from raptuos (Greek) and later rapio (Latin Vulgate) and to raptured. Is it not stated that the dead will rise first then those who believe and are alive would be given a new body or resurrected? This event is called the first resurrection!”

    Actually, the word used for “Caught up” is the word translated from “Harpazo”, which denotes “force suddenly exercised” and

    1) to seize, carry off by force
    2) to seize on, claim for one’s self eagerly
    3) to snatch out or away

    This is the same word used when Paul was caught up to the third heaven (1Cor.12:2) and of Philip when the Spirit of the Lord “suddenly took Philip away,” (Acts 8:39) and of course the same word used when the male child is “caught up” to God’s throne. In regards to the “first resurrection” I think that people make the mistake that when they read the word “first”, they immediately think of “one”, but this is not correct. The first resurrection could be better described as “the resurrection that takes place prior to the last one, that is, at the end of the millennium. If you notice, there are multiple resurrections that take place prior to the last resurrection, which is the resurrection of the lost dead. Jesus was the first fruits of the first resurrection, then the church at his appearing, the two witnesses and the tribulation saints at his coming to earth to establish his millennial kingdom. So, right there you have four different resurrections, which are all labeled under the “first resurrection.” The resurrection that takes place at the end of the millennium are all those lost dead who come out of Hades, where that rich man went of Lazarus and the richman. The error that many make in regards to the resurrection that is mentioned in Rev.20:4 is that they make is synonymous with the resurrection of 1 thes.4:16, but they are different resurrections. The resurrection in 1 Thes 4:16 has two events, one is the resurrection of the dead in Christ and immediately after that, we who are still alive are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and “caught up” with those who were just resurrected. The resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4 is only a resurrection and there is no “catching away” accompaning it. This is specifically a resurrection of those who come out of the great tribulation period, who will not have worshiped the beast or his image or received his mark and who were beheaded because of their faith in Jesus. There is no catching away associated with that resurrection.

  6. This is a continuation from above as my hand accidently hit the submit button: Oops!

    Question: “The 144,000 were not yet sealed nor did their witnessing begin nor were they martyred at this point, so how are they caught up?”

    The 144,000 are sealed in Rev. 7 and are seen as the redeemed with the Lord in Rev.14 after being caught up.

    According to my belief that the 144,000 being the “male child”, they will not be martyred, but caught up. The term “caught up” refers to those who are still alive in Christ. In 1 Thes.4:16 you’ll notice that it says the following:

    “16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice ofthe archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are “alive” and remain will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we shall always be with the Lord.

    So, when the Lord descends from heaven, he brings with him the souls of those who have died in him and he reunites their souls with their now resurrected bodies. That event will take place in a split second and then immediately after that, those who are still “alive” who are in Christ will be changed, in a momemnt, in the twinkling of an eye and caught up, (1Thes 4:16; 1Cor 15:51-52). So, those who are caught up, never die a phyisical death, but are changed on the spot and caught up with those who were previously resurrected and so, the entire church from beginning to end will be present in the air, where Jesus will take us back to the Father’s house (John 14:1-3). Once this happens, this marks the end of the church period. Those who come to Christ during the tribulation are not part of the church, as they are a seperate group, as are the OT saints and the 144,000 as well as the tribulation saints.

    I hope this helps. I look forward to responses.

    Yours in Christ

  7. Hello again! Regarding the “chip” technology leading up to the mark of the beast, here is some information for you to read:

    Sorry, we don’t take cash. Have you an arm or a leg?
    Jane Croft
    FT.com

    Saturday May 19, 2007
    Conrad Chase, British co-owner of the VIP Baja Beach Club in Barcelona, makes an unlikely human debit card.
    Mr Chase and almost 100 other clubbers have opted to have tiny data chips implanted surgically under their skin. When they want to buy a drink, they simply wave their techno-enabled arms across the counter.
    The chip, made by the VeriChip Corporation, is only the size of a grain of rice but can transmit an ID number to a scanner allowing money to be taken from clubbers’ bank accounts.
    Mr Chase may be an extreme example but he demonstrates a wider point: Britons are rapidly embracing the cashless society. The Association for Payment Clearing Services, the UK industry body, forecasts that in less than a decade fewer than half of all payments will be made by cash.
    Banks, including HBOS, HSBC, Barclays and Royal Bank of Scotland, are surfing the cash-free wave by introducing new credit and debit cards. Customers will be able to pay for items under £10 by tapping the cards on a terminal at the till – much as they would a transport fare card.
    Sandra Alzetta, head of innovation and acceptance at Visa Europe, says this will speed transactions:.
    “Until now, cash has been king. Other methods have been too slow or too expensive for small ticket items with values of less than £10,” she said. “But contactless payments are much quicker than cash. If you’re buying a coffee or doing a grocery top-up, speed matters a lot.”
    Payment by mobile phone is also starting to take off.
    This week, the Post Office announced an electronic money-transfer service that allows recipients to receive funds using a bar code sent to a mobile or email address.
    The service is intended to allow companies to distribute promotional incentives and cash payments for less than the cost of a cheque. Companies send a reference code by text message or email, which customers take to any UK post office to receive instant payment.
    Visa is already testing a system in France that will allow consumers to pay for goods via mobile phone. In Britain, items such as parking and London’s traffic congestion charge can already be paid in this fashion.
    Another way cash is being edged out is through pre-paid cards that can be loaded up with cash and used like a credit card. PSE Consulting, the European payment consultancy, estimates that the total number of pre-paid cards issued in the UK will rise from 2m currently to 44m by 2010.
    Those who cling stubbornly to pounds and pence may even pay a price for their intransigence. Some utility companies have already started to penalise households who settle their bills by cash or cheque. BT has introduced a £4.50 charge for the millions who do not pay by direct debit.
    But the international experience suggests that Britain can expect even more striking developments in the future. A “pay-by-mobile” system already operates in Japan. In Texas, 500 people are taking part in a trial using a MasterCard PayPass to buy items from 7-Eleven stores via Nokia mobiles. Customers tap their pass or phone on to a specially equipped merchant terminal.
    But not everyone believes that cash has had its day.
    Jonathan Charley, vice-president of financial services at the business and technology company EDS, questions whether retailers will be willing to join the “tap and go” revolution if they have to bear the costs of rolling out the system.
    Commenting on Visa’s declared wish to turn the 2012 London Olympics into a cashless event, he said: “I think a cashless Olympics is a good vision but will not be achieved unless retailers and small businesses have the devices to read cards. Who is going to be paying for the devices and using the service – the consumer, retailer or the banks?”
    He added that the contactless card scheme also assumed that consumers had a bank account. “The challenge is that the contactless scheme [in London] can’t be used by those who don’t have a bank account. A whole swathe of people could be excluded from being able to take advantage of these new services.”
    Nicola O’Reilly of the National Consumer Council said: “We have concerns around security and the ability of consumers to keep track of what they’re spending, which is an essential part of budgeting. If any of these systems are only available to credit-card holders that would be unfair to those who do not have cards.”
    Matthew Knowles, from the Federation of Small Businesses, pointed out: “Small businesses would need to know that the systems were secure and they would not be liable if there was fraud in the system. We would also need to make sure small companies were not disadvantaged if they didn’t have the technology.”
    Transactions turn technical
    By Jane Croft
    In 2006 the UK made 23.1bn cash transactions, which works out at nineper adult a week, writes Jane Croft.
    Two-thirds of the 23bn cash transactions are for less than £5. Use of cash has fallen by 14 per cent in the past five years and even in the past year consumers have started to use debit cards for low value transactions.
    Six in 10 of all cash payments are in the retail sector. Cash remains the main payment method on public transport, in pubs, clubs, restaurants and cinemas. By 2014 fewer than half of all payments will be made by cash.
    Mobile phone banking is taking off. Mobile operators are supporting an initiative to enable people who work abroad to use their phones to send money home. The GSM Association, the global trade body for mobile operators, and MasterCard Worldwide, the US payment processing company, have announced a pilot programme whereby migrant workers will use mobile phones for international remittances. The initiative is led by Sunil Mittal, chairman of Bharti Airtel, the largest mobile operator in India, which is the biggest recipient of overseas remittances. It is backed by Vodafone, Cingular and Telecom Italia.
    This year HSBC began a mobile phone pilot project with MasterCard and ViVOtech. The six-month trial will test the use of mobile phones to make contactless, secure credit card purchases for low-value

  8. Hello again!

    Here is another internet posting regarding the mark of the beast technology. It is exciting to me because, our redemption draws near!

    Baja Beach Club in Barcelona, Spain Launches Microchip Implantation for VIP Members
    Violet Jones/Infowars.com | April 7 2004

    Baja Beach Club owner Conrad Chase wanted something unique to identify his VIP patrons. Other clubs had special jewelry or key chains, but he was looking for something special. After brainstorming, he came up with the idea to implant his VIP members with VeriChip’s implantable microchip.
    Alex has spoken many times over the years about how the making the chip “fun” and how by giving it an elite status soon an entire of young teenagers will be arguing with their parents demanding that they let them be implanted so that they can be in the “in” crowd. The Baja Beach Club and Chase have proved that the trend has started.

    When I spoke to Mr. Chase this morning he told me that his implant launch had gotten the international media’s attention. He himself was implanted at the media launch of the VIP implant system along with stars from the Spanish version of the TV Show, “Big Brother,” (called “Grand Hermano” in Spain).
    He also told me that he had been in touch with the VeriChip Corporation and that there were several new developments with their implant system including the Belgian subsidiary of firearm company, FN Herstal, which manufactures Browning and Smith and Wesson firearms, launching a implant-firearm system which would make a firearm functional only to the individual implanted with its corresponding microchip.
    The Baja Beach Club is one of Barcelona’s hottest night spots. The website describes its VIP area:

    “We have a special zone at Baja beach Club where only VIPs are allowed, which has various exclusive services for these members.
    We are the first discotheque in the world to offer the VIP VeriChip. Using an integrated (imbedded) microchip, our VIPS can identify themselves and pay for their food and drinks without the need for any kind of document (ID).”
    —————————————————————————————————-
    Here’s an interview with Conrad Chase from the website:

    Conrad Chase, Director of Baja Beach Club’s Interview with the EFE News Agency about the VIP VeriChip
    As you explain it, the VeriChip is a technology consisting of the implantation of a digital chip under the skin. What was your motivation in introducing the use of this technology in a location like the Baja Beach Club.
    Two reasons.

    The first is to follow the philosophy of originality that the Baja Beach Club has had from its origination. The second is to benefit from the latest most advanced technology.
    The majority of night clubs aren’t originals and only copy that which other people have created. In the province of Barcelona, we have for the 5 copy-cats of the Baja Beach Club.
    The placement of this sub dermal chip is done with a syringe. Does this implantation method cause any troubles or side effects?
    The chip is made of glass, totally innocuous and is implanted by a a single-use, sterilized syringe.
    Conrad, do you think that the VeriChip will have a warm reception?
    Yes, I know many people who want to be implanted. Actually, almost everybody has piercings, tattoos or silicone.
    Do you have tattoos, piercings or silicone?
    No, but I have worn piercings. Maybe one day I’ll get a tattoo of the Baja Beach Club logo.
    In routine daily life does (the chip) cause you any trouble? No metal detectors react to it?
    (Laughs) Lots of people ask me this. It doesn’t cause any problems, it doesn’t pinch, it doesn’t hurt…as far as being detectible by metal detectors…well, maybe, but any Texan button has 10 times more metal that the VeriChip.
    Who implants the chip?
    The implantation can be done by any person with an ATS title, and in The Baja Beach the implantation will be done by a medic.
    How is it extracted?
    It’s a very simple process. As easy as extracting a small splinter.
    What advantages will a baja Beach Club client that wants to be implanted have?
    You won’t have to carry a wallet. By simply passing by our reader, the Baja beach Club will know who you are and what your credit balance is. From the moment of their implantation they will also have free entry and access to the VIP area which we will formally open the 25th of March.
    Is it free for your clients?
    On the day of the launch, we are giving it for free to all of our VIPS. After that day, the cost of implantation will be 125 Euros.
    If I implant myself will it only be valid at the Baja?
    The objective of this technology is to bring an ID system to a global level that will destroy the need to carry ID documents and credit cards. The veriChip the we implant in the Baja will not only be for the Baja, but is also useful for whatever other enterprise that makes use of this technology.
    —————————————————————————————————-
    Visit the Baja Beach Club’s website at: http://www.bajabeach.es/
    —————————————————————————————————-

    PALM BEACH, Fla–(BUSINESS WIRE)–April 5, 2004–Applied Digital Solutions, Inc. (Nasdaq: ADSXD), an advanced technology development company, today announced that Baja Beach Clubs International had employed the VeriPay System, developed by Applied Digital’s VeriChip Corporation, at a night club in Spain.
    Launched at a global security conference in November, 2003, the VeriPay System is a new syringe-injectable microchip implant for humans, designed to be used as a fraud-proof payment method for cash and credit-card transactions. The chip implant is an advance over credit cards and smart cards, which, absent biometrics and appropriate safeguard technologies, are subject to theft, resulting in identity fraud.
    “We are the only company today offering human implantable ID technology,” said Scott R. Silverman, Chairman and Chief Executive Officer of Applied Digital Solutions. “We believe the market opportunity for this technology is substantial, and high-profile successes such as in Spain will serve as catalysts for broader adoption.”
    “The VeriPay chipping event was a huge success,” said Conrad K. Chase, Director of the Baja Beach Clubs International. “Everyone embraced the electronic payment application. My customers like the fact that they do not have to carry a credit card or ID card with them. With the VeriPay system, they no longer have to worry about their credit cards getting lost or stolen.”
    About Applied Digital Solutions, Inc.
    Applied Digital Solutions is an advanced technology development company that focuses on a range of early warning alert, miniaturized power sources and security monitoring systems combined with the comprehensive data management services required to support them. Through its Advanced Wireless unit, the Company specializes in security-related data collection, value-added data intelligence and complex data delivery systems for a wide variety of end users including commercial operations, government agencies and consumers. For more information, visit the company’s website at http://www.adsx.com .
    Statements about the Company’s future expectations, including future revenues and earnings, and all other statements in this press release other than historical facts are “forward-looking statements” within the meaning of Section 27A of the Securities Act of 1933, Section 21E of the Securities Exchange Act of 1934, and as that term is defined in the Private Litigation Reform Act of 1995. Such forward-looking statements involve risks and uncertainties and are subject to change at any time, and the Company’s actual results could differ materially from expected results. The Company undertakes no obligation to update forward-looking statements to reflect subsequently occurring events or circumstances.

    —————————–
    FIRST DISCO-BAR THAT WILL INJECT VERICHIP ON CLIENTS! *PIC*
    Rumor Mill News
    Posted By: Spectator
    Date: Tuesday, 6 April 2004, 7:32 p.m.
    I have read about many fronts opened for to impose microchipping on people. First all starts with proposals to implant people that were forced to obey orders ( Proposed microchipping on US military ) or depend on the state institutions ( proposal for implant all the homeless ) even proposals for implant elderly people
    As a sign of things to come, in March, 18th: Here, in Barcelona we had another front open: the recreational front, as an attempt to make “fashionable” the implant.
    The Baja Beach Club disco/bar ( in the Olympic port, a great night
    recreational area ) will be the first disco/bar in Spain that will implant
    on his/her clients an injectable subcutaneous transponder that will give
    them free access without documentation, pay the consummations and have access to the VIP room.
    The inauguration of the method was presented by some famous people that were “microchipped”. That was shown in TV programs and shows.
    Even more ominous were the declarations of the disco/bar owners, “The
    chip will prevail in the future, because in those times the people will use
    it as cash, obviating the need of a credit card.” I think that the first
    stage of “microchipping” of people has reached our country; that is being launched to appeal to young people in first place.
    Conrad Chase, The director of the Baja beach Disco-Bars ( There are more Baja Beach Discos in other countries, Netherlands, as an example ) is the responsible of the Verichip injection for his clients. He explained that a simple injection will implant this chip. This implant will be used for to charge money or automatically open the doors. “When the client is entering into the discotheque we will know who is and what is his/her account status.”
    The injection will cost $ 153.

  9. Hello Don,

    You are obviously very interested in the end times and truly a soldier of the word. I see you hold firmly to your views and develop them inspirationally through scriptures.

    I would like very much to look at the Book of Revelations in its entirety with you on this thread and we can discuss, share our points of views and opinions and hopefully others would join in.

    Permit me to start with the first 3 chapters, please comment;
    The first 3 chapters of the Book of Revelations (letters to the churches)tells of the Kingly character of Christ and the various stages in the maturing of the church from Pentecost to the Rapture . In Revelation 1: 19 Christ gives us the contents for the Book, it reveals the time sequence for the things being seen, the things that are and the things to come.

    Rev 1:19
    19 “Therefore write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which will take place after these things.

    Rev 2:1-7
    2 “To the angel of the church in Ephesus write: The One who holds the seven stars in His right hand, the One who walks among the seven golden lampstands, says this: 2 ‘ I know your deeds and your toil and perseverance, and that you cannot tolerate evil men, and you put to the test those who call themselves apostles, and they are not, and you found them to be false; 3 and you have perseverance and have endured for My name’s sake, and have not grown weary. 4 ‘But I have this against you, that you have left your first love. 5 ‘Therefore remember from where you have fallen, and repent and do the deeds you did at first; or else I am coming to you and will remove your lampstand out of its place — unless you repent. 6 ‘Yet this you do have, that you hate the deeds of the Nicolaitans, which I also hate. 7 ‘ He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, I will grant to eat of the tree of life which is in the Paradise of God.’

    Ephesus (maiden of choice or desirable) was a wealthy port city in those days and housed one of the seven wonders of the ancient world – the temple (of Artemus) dedicated to the pagan goddess Diana which also served as a bank. The city was tourist oriented and heavily commercialized. Over the years silt deposit from the sea pushed the city area miles away from the port and eventually they lost the source of their wealth and the city went into ruins and the church with it. God did not destroy the city, He moved the port. They did not repent, no more church! Look at the description of Christ, His commendation, His reprove and His reward.

    Rev 2:8-11 8 “And to the angel of the church in Smyrna write: The first and the last, who was dead, and has come to life, says this:
    9 ‘I know your tribulation and your poverty (but you are rich), and the blasphemy by those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. 10 ‘Do not fear what you are about to suffer. Behold, the devil is about to cast some of you into prison, so that you will be tested, and you will have tribulation for ten days. Be faithful until death, and I will give you the crown of life. 11 ‘ He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. He who overcomes will not be hurt by the second death.’

    Smyrna (associated with myrrh used in burials) also a wealthy port city and famous for worshiping the Roman Emperor, however the Jewish people were allowed their form of worship because of their stubbornness (God called them a stiff-necked people), the city still exists today under a different name. Amidst the pagan worship the Jews were allowed their form of worship and then came the early Christian movement and threats were made to the worship concession given to the Jews. Maintained their faith and were mostly martyred! Look at the description of Christ, His commendation, and His reward (no reprove).

    Rev 2:12-17 12 “And to the angel of the church in Pergamum write: The One who has the sharp two-edged sword says this:
    13 ‘I know where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is; and you hold fast My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days of Antipas, My witness, My faithful one, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. 14 ‘But I have a few things against you, because you have there some who hold the teaching of Balaam, who kept teaching Balak to put a stumbling block before the sons of Israel, to eat things sacrificed to idols and to commit acts of immorality. 15 ‘So you also have some who in the same way hold the teaching of the Nicolaitans. 16 ‘Therefore repent; or else I am coming to you quickly, and I will make war against them with the sword of My mouth. 17 ‘ He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches. To him who overcomes, to him I will give some of the hidden manna, and I will give him a white stone, and a new name written on the stone which no one knows but he who receives it.’

    Pergamum (completely married) located in a large valley region and was a city/state or a self governed kingdom famous for idol worship, their main pagan god were Athena and Dionysus. Later, under Roman rule became the capital of Asia Minor with it’s Roman governor having the right of the sword (powers to issue execution orders). They also had a large school of medicine and practiced healing, after which the treated would pass through the building and would give thanks to the pagan gods at the white stone obelisks at the back of the building, much like a production line. Christ is admonishing Christians to exercise church discipline against the false teachers or He (Christ) would destroy them in a manner that the Christians would not like. This is where the era of church/state began with Constantine married church to state and the pagan culture infiltrated the church. Look at the description of Christ, His commendation, His reprove and His reward.

    Rev 2:18-29 18 “And to the angel of the church in Thyatira write:
    The Son of God, who has eyes like a flame of fire, and His feet are like burnished bronze, says this: 19 ‘ I know your deeds, and your love and faith and service and perseverance, and that your deeds of late are greater than at first. 20 ‘But I have this against you, that you tolerate the woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess, and she teaches and leads My bond-servants astray so that they commit acts of immorality and eat things sacrificed to idols. 21 ‘ I gave her time to repent, and she does not want to repent of her immorality. 22 ‘Behold, I will throw her on a bed of sickness, and those who commit adultery with her into great tribulation, unless they repent of her deeds. 23 ‘And I will kill her children with pestilence, and all the churches will know that I am He who searches the minds and hearts; and I will give to each one of you according to your deeds. 24 ‘But I say to you, the rest who are in Thyatira, who do not hold this teaching, who have not known the deep things of Satan, as they call them — I place no other burden on you. 25 ‘Nevertheless what you have, hold fast until I come. 26 ‘ He who overcomes, and he who keeps My deeds until the end,TO HIM I WILL GIVE AUTHORITY OVER THE NATIONS; 27 AND HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON,AS THE VESSELS OF THE POTTER ARE BROKEN TO PIECES, as I also have received authority from My Father; 28 and I will give him the morning star. 29 ‘ He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

    Thyatira (unending sacrifice) a city notably known for the worship of Apollo the son of Zeus. It was famous for guilds or trade unions as we know today, it had specific gods assigned to each guild type much like the catholic church which have saints assigned to particular beliefs. If you did not belong to a guild it would be very difficult to ply your craft and it would be increasingly difficult for Christians to exist in this time period which marked the beginning of the dark ages. Christ used the name Jezebel for its notoriety, Jezebel being the wife of the worst king of Israel, Ahab. She influenced king Ahab to institute pagan idol worship amongst the Jewish people replacing the true worship altogether. The church is one of God’s lampstands and He would not allow His church to be corrupted by pagan worship, the term adultery being used clearly signifies that the church is betrothed/married to someone, that someone being Christ. The church is admonished to call out false teachings. Look at the description of Christ, His commendation, His reprove and His reward.

    Rev 3:1-6 3 “To the angel of the church in Sardis write: He who has the seven Spirits of God and the seven stars, says this: ‘ I know your deeds, that you have a name that you are alive, but you are dead. 2 ‘Wake up, and strengthen the things that remain, which were about to die; for I have not found your deeds completed in the sight of My God. 3 ‘So remember what you have received and heard; and keep it, and repent. Therefore if you do not wake up, I will come like a thief, and you will not know at what hour I will come to you. 4 ‘But you have a few people in Sardis who have not soiled their garments; and they will walk with Me in white, for they are worthy. 5 ‘ He who overcomes will thus be clothed in white garments; and I will not erase his name from the book of life, and I will confess his name before My Father and before His angels. 6 ‘ He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

    Sardis (those escaping) an impregnable city for some time until it was conquered by the Persians who discovered a way to penetrate the city’s fortress through a secret entrance which was later used by Antiochus Epiphanes to overthrow the Persians. Antiochus Epiphanes was a “type of antichrist” written about in the book of Daniel famous for the abomination of desolation. Jews are told to flee/escape when there is the abomination of desolation in the tribulation time to come. The church was on the brink of dying despite its size because it was filled with an appearance of believers who were in fact were practicing a form of godliness but not, for the most part, indwelled by the Holy Spirit. This marked the era of reformation led by Martin Luther. Look at the description of Christ, His commendation, His reprove and His reward.

    Rev 3:7-13 7 “And to the angel of the church in Philadelphia write:
    He who is holy, who is true, who has the key of David, who opens and no one will shut, and who shuts and no one opens, says this:
    8 ‘ I know your deeds. Behold, I have put before you an open door which no one can shut, because you have a little power, and have kept My word, and have not denied My name. 9 ‘Behold, I will cause those of the synagogue of Satan, who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie — I will make them come and bow down at your feet, and make them know that I have loved you. 10 ‘Because you have kept the word of My perseverance, I also will keep you from the hour of testing, that hour which is about to come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth. 11 ‘ I am coming quickly; hold fast what you have, so that no one will take your crown. 12 ‘ He who overcomes, I will make him a pillar in the temple of My God, and he will not go out from it anymore; and I will write on him the name of My God, and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down out of heaven from My God, and My new name. 13 ‘ He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

    Philadelphia (brotherly love) the city still exists today under a different name and was founded by the King of Pergamum who named it for his brother, the king famously loved his brother (Philadelphus) and the people adopted it for its name. It was city destroyed by an earthquake in 17AD and rebuilt generations later. This church had similar persecuted experiences as Smyrna and was its contemporary. This was the missionary era and persevered despite tremendous persecution. Christ demonstrated to the people His Kingliness being the one who has the keys of David who is a “type of Christ”. Christ has endowed the people with the right to evangelize or bring other believers to faith and would be spared from the time of testing which is yet to come on the earth. Look at the description of Christ, His commendation, and His reward (no reprove).

    Rev 3:14-22 14 “To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: The Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Beginning of the creation of God, says this: 15 ‘ I know your deeds, that you are neither cold nor hot; I wish that you were cold or hot. 16 ‘So because you are lukewarm, and neither hot nor cold, I will spit you out of My mouth. 17 ‘Because you say, ” I am rich, and have become wealthy, and have need of nothing,” and you do not know that you are wretched and miserable and poor and blind and naked, 18 I advise you to buy from Me gold refined by fire so that you may become rich, and white garments so that you may clothe yourself, and that the shame of your nakedness will not be revealed; and eye salve to anoint your eyes so that you may see. 19 ‘ Those whom I love, I reprove and discipline; therefore be zealous and repent. 20 ‘Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21 ‘ He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22 ‘ He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”

    Laodicea (people ruling or self governed) this city between a snow-capped mountainous region to the north and hot springs to the south, due of its location it drew its water from the north because the water from the south would be warm and undrinkable. It was city famous for banking and a hub for commercial activities, medicine which included eye sap as well as unique black wool. When the city was destroyed the people refused imperial help to rebuild preferring to to rebuild themselves. They were self-sufficient and in need of no help relying on their wealth, this is indicative of the existing apostate era. Because they relied on their wealth they had no need for God or His salvation, of note is the fact that the letter to this church bears no commendation of Christ. Look at the description of Christ, His commendation, His reprove and His reward.

    To summarize we can see the evolution of the various ages of the church starting with:-

    Ephesus the apostolic church -> Smyrna the persecuted church -> Pergamum the unification of state and church -> Thyatira the dark ages church -> Sardis the reformation church -> Philadelphia the missionary church -> Laodicea the apostate church. I would venture to state with confidence in God’s word that the letters describe a sequential period in the maturing of the church.

    We are undoubtedly in the age of the 7th church as we can see the prevalence of false teachings, prosperity ministries, boastfulness, mockers of true beliefs, self sufficient not depending on God. It is fact that the understanding of these letters only came about in the last 50 years while secular societies adopted the theory of evolution without any proof for almost a century. Christ notably describes himself as the beginning of creation in His letter to the church of Laodicea.

    Rev 4:1-8 4 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, ” Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” 2 Immediately I was in the Spirit; and behold, a throne was standing in heaven, and One sitting on the throne. 3 And He who was sitting was like a jasper stone and a sardius in appearance; and there was a rainbow around the throne, like an emerald in appearance. 4 Around the throne were twenty-four thrones; and upon the thrones I saw twenty-four elders sitting, clothed in white garments, and golden crowns on their heads. The Throne and Worship of the Creator 5 Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; 6 and before the throne there was something like a sea of glass, like crystal; and in the center and around the throne, four living creatures full of eyes in front and behind. 7 The first creature was like a lion, and the second creature like a calf, and the third creature had a face like that of a man, and the fourth creature was like a flying eagle. 8 And the four living creatures, each one of them having six wings, are full of eyes around and within; and day and night they do not cease to say,

    Remember earlier I mentioned that Rev 1: 19 describes the contents of the book – things being seen, things that are and things to come, also bear in mind that the indwelling of the Holy Spirit signifies who a Christian is. Now look at Rev 4: 1 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, ” Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.” The letters to the 7 churches describes things that ARE or present things, then the book continues in Rev 4 to describe the things to come noted by the term AFTER THESE THINGS.

    Undoubtedly there is a gap at the end of chapter 3 and the beginning of chapter 4, this, I believe from scriptural evidence is when the rapture would take place. This is supported in Rev 5 Out from the throne come flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God; the seven spirits of God is the completeness of God including the Holy Spirit. If then, the Holy Spirit is with God in Heaven then what is indwelling Christians on earth? The rapture fills the gap because we are with Christ in heaven also.

    God told us that believers would not be subject to His wrath, this being TRUE, Christians then would not be physically on earth. So my friend we are in fact the age of the 7th church however long that time would be. We are still here so the rapture has not taken place and thus no tribulation period (Daniel’s 70th week) has taken place as well no antichrist (Obama as some believe) has been revealed.

    Be not afraid/worried but be joyful that we are in the age of the 7th church and we would soon be raptured. In all things I give God the glory through His blessed Son Christ Jesus our savior for granting me the opportunity to teach His word. I am not perfect so I ask for His forgiveness if I have misrepresented His word in anyway and I pray that the Holy Spirit would correct it in our hearts.

    Grace be with you
    Wesley

    • Hi Wesley,

      That is quite a lot of information, which I totally agree with. But, instead of commenting, I thought you might like to read one of my other posts that contain information regarding some of the informatioin that you listed in your response. So, what I did is copy and pasted my post below. The post is called “The Resurrection and Catching away.”

      “The Resurrection and Catching Away”To be sure, there are several views as to when the events of the resurrection and catching away or ”rapture” as some call it is to take place in relation to the end of age. One of the major problems regarding the timing of the resurrection and catching away described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is that, many make it synonymous with the resurrection of the great tribulation saints, which takes place at Christ’s second coming to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom found in Rev. 20:4. There are two major differences between the resurrection of 1 Thes.4:16 and Rev.20:4. In the resurrection mentioned in 1 Thes.4:16, there are two events which take place, the first being the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which includes all who have died from the beginning of the church period up until the event of the resurrection takes place, then immediately following that, is the “catching away” of those in Christ who are still alive, who will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and caught up in the air with those who were just resurrected. At that point, the entire church from its inception to the end, dead and living, will be gathered together in the air with the Lord where he takes us back to the Father’s house (John 14:1-3). The resurrection described in Rev.20:4, is only a resurrection, as There is no “catching away” associated with this resurrection. That resurrection is made up only of those who were beheaded during the great tibulation period and that because they would not worship the beast or his image nor receive his mark.

      In this posting, when I refer to the “end of the age” it is in reference to Jesus Christ’s physical return to the earth to set up His millennial kingdom. It is not my purpose here to argue against the other views or to compare, but only to present my view according to my own personal studies. Let’s examine the verses:

      I Thessalonians 4:13-18 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep . For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.

      From the verses above, we can see that the promise are to those who have died in Christ from the beginning of the church, including those who will have died in Christ leading right up to the time of the resurrection, as well as to those who are in Christ that are still alive when this event takes place. As is stated, the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God. So, when this event takes place, Jesus will bring with Him the souls of those who have been in His presence in heaven and he will reunite them with their now resurrected bodies. Once that takes place, which will be immediate, then according to Paul in I Corinthians 15:51-53, those who are still alive will be changed, in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye and they will be [caught up] with those who will have just been resurrected from the dead, where according to the Lord’s promise found in John 14:1-3, He will come and take us back to the Father’s house. Regarding the verse in I Thessalonians mentioned above, the expression “will be caught up” is translated from the Greek word “Harpazo”, which conveys the idea of force suddenly exercised or to seize, to carry off by force, to snatch away. This is the same word which is used in regards to Philip when he was [suddenly taken away] from the eunuch by the Spirit of God (Acts 8:39), of Paul when he spoke of being [caught up] to the third heaven (II Cor. 12:2-4) and of the man child being [snatched up] to God’s throne (Rev. 12:5). Basically, at the time that this event takes place, both those who have died in Christ, as well as those who are still alive at His appearing, will take on the characteristics that Paul mentions in I Corinthians 15: 42-44:

      “So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.”

      And Jesus also said regarding the resurrection:

      Matthew 22:30 – “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”

      This resurrection of the dead, which includes the living who are changed in a moment and caught up, is referred to as the “First resurrection”, which is not restricted to one single resurrection, but is made up of several resurrections, Christ being the first fruits, then the church (living and dead), the 144,000 (male child), the white robed saints that come out of the great tribulation and the two witnesses. The first resurrection could be termed as the resurrection that takes place prior to the last one, that is, all the resurrection’s that take place prior to the resurrection of the unjust, which takes place at the end of the millennium, all fall under the banner of “first resurrection.” It is the resurrection that takes place at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ that is the one that a person would not want to find themselves taking part in, for those that take part in that resurrection are the ‘lost dead’ who have been resurrected out of Hades and will be judged according to all that they have done, accountable for all of their sins, without Christ as their mediator, with no hope and no one to rescue them (Rev. 20:4-6).

      Now, as to when the resurrection and the catching away of the church takes place in relation to the return of Christ, there are many clues. First of all, let’s go back to I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and read through chapter 5:1-4:

      I Thessalonians 4:13-18 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about the times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that [the day of the Lord] will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety.” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should suprise you like a thief.

      The first thing to notice is that from verses 4:13-18, Paul is describing the resurrection and catching away. Then, in verse 5:2, he refers to it as “The day of the Lord”, which throughout God’s word is always associated with the time of the wrath of God. There are in fact two phases to the day of the Lord. As we can see from the verses above, the first phase is the resurrection and catching away of all who are in Christ, which is followed by the wrath of God. Paul demonstrates this when in verse 5:2, in referring to the resurrection and catching away, he says:

      “For you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”

      Then he says:

      “While people are saying ‘peace and safety’, destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.”

      So, here we have the two phases, ”The resurrection and the catching away” and then “sudden destruction”, which follows. Lets look at the entire verse:

      “While people are saying, ’Peace and safety’, destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.”

      Notice in regards to those of the destruction that it says “they will not escape.” and then he goes on to say, “But you brothers.” Even without reading the rest of the verse, by Paul saying ”but you brothers” immediately infers the opposite of those who are not escaping, that is, that they (the brothers) will escape. Which brings us to the question, how will they escape the destruction just mentioned, where as those others do not? The answer is in the first phase of what Paul first wrote about and that being the resurrection and catching away. That is, the day of the Lord is initiated by the resurrection and catching away and for those who remain on the earth, the wrath of God (destruction), which are comprised in the form of the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments, which are mentioned in the book of Revelation.

      Another example that the day of the Lord begins with the resurrection and catching away is found in 2 Peter 3:10-12

      “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elemnets will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy lives as you [look forward to the day of God] and [speed its coming].

      What got my attention in this verse is what I have enclosed in brackets. Peter is describing the results of the the wrath of God being poured upon the earth, then he says “Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.

      Why would Peter, after describing these terrible events of destruction that are going to come upon the earth during that time period and then say to ” look forward to the day of God and speed its coming?”

      The answer again is, just as Paul explained that the resurrection and the catching away takes place prior to the wrath, Peter is also privey to the same information being that Paul may have revealed it to him or the Lord may have directly revealed it to Peter as well. In other words, Peter in saying “as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming”, he is referring to the first phase of the day of the Lord, which is the resurrection and catching away. Let’s look at some other verses that point to this same conclusion found in I Thessalonians 2:1-2

      “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.”

      Here, Paul is responding to the concerns of the Thessalonians because it had been said among them by some, that the day of the Lord had already come. The reason for their concern is that, in regards to the day of the Lord, they also knew from Paul’s teaching that the resurrection and catching away would take place first and then the wrath of God would follow and therefore, since they were still on earth, that is, since they had not been caught up, they wrote Paul because they were concerned that they had missed the resurrection and catching away and were now going to be caught in the wrath of God. And of course Paul sets them straight and comforts them by reaffirming that that day would not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

      I believe that the book of Revelation also reveals when the resurrection and catching away will take place in relation to the seals, trumpets and bowls, which represents the wrath of God. We have John being told in Rev. 1:19:

      “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.”

      This divides the book of Revelation up into three parts, 1) what you have seen, 2) what is now and 3) what will take place later. In regards to what John had seen, which was first of all his vision of Christs coming to earth to set up his millennial kingdom Rev. 1:7

      “Look he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him . So shall it be! Amen.”

      Then John hears a voice behind him that sounds like [a trumpet] and when he turns around, he sees the glorified Christ and writes the description of him, which completed what John had [seen]. Then, immediately following what John had seen, he was commanded to write the letters to the seven churches, which are not only representing the actual churches of that time, but represent the entire church period, which is [what is now]. That being said, we are currently still in the [now], being that the church age has not come to its completion. After the last letter is written we move into Rev. 4:1 which is [what will take place later], which is given to the majority of the book of Revelation. The [what will take place later] begins with the following found in Rev. 4:1 –

      “After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like [a trumpet] said, [come up here] and I will show you what must take place [after this].

      There are, I believe, three clues here that points to John representing the church being resurrected and caught up. The first clue is that from chapter 1 through the very end of chapter 3, the word [Ekklesia] translated [church] has been continually used to the very end of chapter 3 and then the word is never used again, it’s missing, which would suggest that the church is missing. The next references found to describe anyone who is in Christ is the word ‘Hagios’, translated ‘Saint’, which is used from then on. The next clue is that John mentions twice, once in verse 1:10 and the other in 4:1 that the voice he hears sounds like [a trumpet], which takes me back to Paul’s description of the resurrection and catching away in I Thes. 4:16 which says:

      “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [trumpet call] of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.”

      I believe that this [trumpet call] mentioned here in I Thes. 4:16 is synonymous with the voice that John hears speaking to him like [a trumpet]. The third clue is that the voice that sounds like a trumpet is saying [Come up here], which is exatly what happens at the resurrection and catching away.

      The wrath of God, also designated “The day of the Lord”, is a time period that will take place prior to Christs return to the earth when at that time, He will establish His millennial kingdom. This wrath, according to the book of Revelation, will be poured out in the form of a seven sealed scroll, which leads into seven trumpets, and then into seven bowl judgments. These judgments will take place within those last seven years and the worst specifically taking place during the last 3 1/2 years which is referred to as “The great tribulation.” Of this time period Jesus said the following:

      Matthew 24:21-22 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now — and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

      Regarding this time of wrath, for those who are in Christ Paul said the following:

      I Thessalonians 5:9 – For God did not appoint us to [suffer wrath], but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

      And he also said the following when speaking to the Thessalonians:

      I Thessalonians 1:10 – and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead — [Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath].

      So, as can be seen from the two verses above, those who are in Christ will not go through or be exposed to the wrath of God, which will be taking place during the seven years prior to Christs return to set up His kingdom.

      In regards to our being rescued from this wrath, Jesus said to the church of Philadelphia:

      Revelation 3: 10 – “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also [keep you from] the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”

      The mention of the “hour of trial” is another designation used to describe that time of wrath that is going to come upon the world. Jesus says that He will “keep us from” that hour of trial. To be kept from it means that we will not even enter into or be exposed to it.

      The following is yet another verse of scripture that points to the resurrection and catching away as taking place prior to the wrath of God.

      II Timothy 2:16-18 “Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.”

      First of all, to recap, the resurrection mentioned here has to do specifically with those who have died in Christ. The word resurrection is translated from the Greek word ’Anastasis’, which denotes “A raising up from the dead.” According to Paul’s outline of the resurrection in I Thessalonians 4:16 and I Corinthians 15:52, those who are still alive when the resurrection takes place will immediately afterwards be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and caught up with those just resurrected to meet the Lord in the air and therefore, the ‘catching away’ is included here when referring to the Resurrection. Notice that Paul labels Hymenaeus and Philetus as those who had wandered away from the truth because they were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. Paul also stated that by this teaching they were destroying the faith of some, which begs the question, why would the teaching that the resurrection having already taken place destroy anyone’s faith? The answer again can be found in Paul’s outline in I Thessalonians 4:16, where Paul describes the dead in Christ rising first, then those who are still alive being changed in a moment and being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Therefore, as these men where going about teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, that also meant that the ‘catching away’ had taken place as well and so they would naturally be concerned because they were still here on earth and hadn’t been caught up, which was their hope, which would destroy their faith because they now had nothing to look forward to but the wrath of God, which according to Paul follows the resurrection.

      The resurrection and catching away could not have taken place already as the Preterist proclaim because Jesus said, “I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” The idea is that, Christ began to build His church and the apostle’s continued in the building and up to this very day the church continues to be built upon and will continue until the very last person whom God forknew, predestined and called, responds. Once the church has been completed, all the dead in Christ from the beginning of the church up until the event of the resurrection, as well as those who are still living at the time that the resurrection takes place, will immediately be changed and caught up, so that the entire church, from the beginning to the end, dead and alive, will be present in the air together at the same time. What follows, will be the revealing of the man of lawlessness and the out-pouring of God’s wrath leading up to Christs return, which ushers in the end of the age.

      Thank you for reading my post. My prayer for you is that God would bless you and strengthen you in your faith, for faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of Christ.

      For those of you who have not yet believed in Christ, I pray that God will reveal the truth of His word and confirm it in your hearts by His Holy Spirit. Whoever will call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved, for whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God’s wrath remains on him.

      Yours in Christ – Don

    • Morning Wesley,

      Well, I am here at work for another 12 hours, which is what I work every Saturday and Sunday. I can see that the Holy Spirt is with you, as he has revealed the same truth of God’s word to you. The things that you speak of are the same truths that God has shown me. After reading your last response, I realized what you were saying regarding the proof of the resurrection and catching away in Rev.4:1, which is why I replied with my posting, because it had the same information that you had sent to me. In that posting are many proofs of the resurrection and catching away taking place prior to the wrath of God and also in Rev.4:1 it shows that this event will take place before the first seals is opened. In fact, I believe that the Lord will come for us before that beast (antichrist) is revealed.

      However, I do believe that we will begin to see the use of his mark more and more as time goes on. Right now it is being used in Spain and probably in other places and I am sure that it will begin to spread to all parts of the world, so that the world will be using this method of making purchases with this RFID chip along side cash, cheques, credit, debit, money orders, etc, for methods of payment. I have been watching the progress of this ever since the first ATM machines came out, then the POS system and now this chip technology. Since we can see the technology that will be used for the mark of the beast, you know that we are very close to the Lord’s return.

      As I stated in my posting, there are 3 main clues there in Rev.4:1, which point to the church being resurrected and caught up. The first one is that, from the chapter 1 though the end of chapter 3 of Revelation, the word “Ekklesia”, translated “Church” is used and is in fact the very last word of chapter 3 and then, we never see the word again. The word is missing, ergo, the church is missing. The next time that a believer is mentioned, it is by the name “Hagios”, translated “Saint” and we never see the word “church” again.

      The second clue is that John says that he heard a voice that sounded like a “trumpet” saying, come up here.” I believe that this voice that sounded like a trumpet is synonymous with the “trumpet call” of God that is found in 1 Thes.4:16, where the church is resurrected and caught up, which would mean that John here is representing the church being resurrected and caught up.

      The third clue is that the voice that sounds like a trumpet is saying “come up here”, which is exactly what happens at the resurrection and cathcing away. Another clue is that after the voice says “come up here,” John says “immediately I was in the spirit,” which is also what happens to us when the resurrection and catching away, as we are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, into what Paul called a “spiritual body” (1 Cor.15:44).

      Many people (deceivers) teach that the first century church did not teach a resurrection and catching away prior to Chirst’s return to the earth, but that is in fact exactly what Paul taught. In my previous posting you will see all of the places that I use as proof that Paul taught first the resurrection and catching away and then the wrath of God. You are correct, we are not appointed to God’s wrath and God’s wrath is what will be taking place prior to Christ’s return in the form of the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments. The world is not even aware of what is coming!

      “For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now– and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.” (Mt.24:21-22)

      Regarding this time period of great distress, also know as the day of the Lord, God said:

      “I will make man scarcer than pur gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.” (Isaiah 13:12)

      It will be the worst time in the history of the world. There are only two places in the book of Revelation where a percentage is given as to how many people will be killed and that 1/4 of the earths population will be killed at the opening of the fourth seal and 1/3 at the sixth trumpet, which equals 50% of the earths population that will be killed. But, that is not an accurate percentage, because the number of people that are killed by the first, second and third trumpets is not listed and you can bet that there will be at least a billion and a half more added to that list and that is not even counting the seven bowl judgments. So, you can see how it will be fulfilled when Jesus said, “if those days had not been cut short, no one would survive.” The only people who will make it through the great tribulaiton are those whom God has chosen ahead of time and they will go into the millennial kingdom in their mortal bodies to repopulate the earth, which also includes the woman (Israel) of whom God cares for 3 1/2 years.

      Thanks be to God for revealing his truth to us! If it were not for his grace and mercy, we would be lost as well and not know these things either, but in his grace he has made them known to us. It is exciting to say the least, as we witness the emergence of this mark of the beast technology. No one in any other time of the history of the earth could know what the mark of the beast was referring to except for us in this very last generation. I will look forward to your next response.

      If you would like to read some of my other postings, please do a search on the following:

      1. The mark of the beast
      2. Woe! Woe! Woe!
      3. The Abomination of Desolation
      4. The Resurrection and Catching Away
      5. One Taken, One Left
      6. After Death
      7. Hell

      Yours in Christ!

  10. Hello Don,

    Quite inspiring reading my friend. Anything that glorifies our Lord Jesus is well worth the time and attention. I say Amen and God be praised to your last couple of posts.

    I believe you have, through God’s divine word (the bible) and His revealing of spiritual mysteries have filled the gap between chapter 3 and chapter 4 of Revelations – the rapture.

    At this juncture, I think a common mistake is made by theologists and scholars; they mostly dive right into the text as it is laid out without given consideration to the changing time frame sequence, ‘after these things’. This is where we must look at the other prophetic books, namely Daniel, and a couple of the gospel; Matthew and Luke primarily for the Olivet Discourse where the age of the gentiles comes into focus.

    I think this is the time that we should start looking at the bigger picture because effectively with the rapture, the church age comes to an end. We must ask, why the church? when did it come into being? and when does it come to an end? What then is the beginning of the church age? It is the time when Christians were defined as those who have the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, we call this time – Pentecost.

    So why the church to begin with, Isaiah has answered this question beautifully, Isa 29:9-14, 9 Be delayed and wait,
    Blind yourselves and be blind;
    They become drunk, but not with wine,
    They stagger, but not with strong drink.
    10 For the Lord has poured over you a spirit of deep sleep,
    He has shut your eyes, the prophets;
    And He has covered your heads, the seers.
    11 The entire vision will be to you like the words of a sealed book, which when they give it to the one who is literate, saying, “Please read this,” he will say, “I cannot, for it is sealed.” 12 Then the book will be given to the one who is illiterate, saying, “Please read this.” And he will say, “I cannot read.”
    13 Then the Lord said,
    “Because this people draw near with their words
    And honor Me with their lip service,
    But they remove their hearts far from Me,
    And their reverence for Me consists of tradition learned by rote,
    14 Therefore behold, I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous;
    And the wisdom of their wise men will perish,
    And the discernment of their discerning men will be concealed.”

    God is speaking prophetically to Isaiah about the disobedience of the nation of Israel. The nation, we are told is being reverent only through repetition rather than through faith, He has sworn for a time He would discipline them – I will once again deal marvelously with this people, wondrously marvelous; (not a good thing). Luke 21:24, 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled. This is what happened to Israel after the fall of Jerusalem in AD70. They were judged for their apostasy, for their adultery and they were removed from their prominence. This is where I think we should start to look at another key component; the age of the Gentiles.

    Daniel 2 – the statue
    I would be brief since I believe you would already know this, but I’m catering for others who may be led to this thread.

    Head of gold – the Babylonian Kingdom – described in Dan 7:4, 4 “The first was like a lion and had the wings of an eagle.

    The ancient symbol for Babylon was the winged lion.

    Breast & arms of silver – the Medo-Persian Empire – described in
    Dan 7:5-6, 5 “And behold, another beast, a second one, resembling a bear. And it was raised up on one side, and three ribs were in its mouth between its teeth; and thus they said to it, ‘Arise, devour much meat!’

    Note the bear is leaning on one side, this depicts the imbalance of power between the Medes and the Persians, two nations (one stronger than the other) joining together and sharing power. The three ribs are the conquered regions – Israel, Libya and

    Belly & thighs of brass – the Greek or Hellenistic empire – Dan 7:6
    A like a leopard, which had on its back four wings of a bird; the beast also had four heads, and dominion was given to it.

    The leopard signifying speed attest to the short space of time that Alexander conquered the known world. The empire was eventually split up amongst Alexander’s four generals, depicted by the four wings.

    Legs & feet of iron and clay – Dan 7:7-8, 7 “After this I kept looking in the night visions, and behold, a fourth beast, dreadful and terrifying and extremely strong; and it had large iron teeth. It devoured and crushed and trampled down the remainder with its feet; and it was different from all the beasts that were before it, and it had ten horns. 8 “While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man and a mouth uttering great boasts.

    This is the imperialist kingdom that exist today. Next post I will go deeper into the fourth kingdom as it is the kingdom that the antichrist will arise from.

    Before I close, I think it is important to examine the materials used to describe the 4 kingdoms, gold -> silver -> brass -> iron/clay. The types materials serve two purpose; value and strength, progressively the quality of rule diminishes and is replaced by the raw power of each succeeding kingdom.

    I give thanks to God through Jesus our redeemer for His word and pray that any errors would be forgiven and the truth revealed to God’s glory.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hey Wesley,

      In regards to Nebuchadnezzar’s statue, the legs of iron (Rome) has passed, but the revived Roman empire, which are the feet made of iron and of baked clay, which is and has been in the process of being set up. The ten toes of the statue are synonymous with the ten horns on the beast of Revelation, which represent ten kings, that become kings only after being with the beast for one hour. These are those same kings of whom God puts it into their hearts to hate the prositute of Revelation 17 & 18, along with the beast and of course they burn her with fire and destroy her. But then, the Rock that is cut out of the mountain, but not by human hands, falls on the feet of iron mixed with clay and the statue crumbles to pieces like chaff on the threashing floor in the summer and the wind blows the chaff away never to be found again. Since the statue represents all of the world ruling kingdoms from the beginning of man’s history until the end, when Christ who is that rock that is cut out of the mountain falls on the feet of the statue, it represents the end of human government and the beginning of his kingdom of which there will ne no end. The kingdom of the ten toes of iron mixed with clay is on its way and will become complete when this beast shows up. You know, if an unbeliever was reading these posts, they would think we were nuts! But, the word of God is the most valuable information in the world, because it is the word of God and it leads to eternal life.

  11. Hello Don,

    How’s Bellevue? (LOL) I agree, people would think we’re wackos! A couple of years ago I thought the same about these symbols and signs, thanks be to God that they mean something extraordinary to me and others as well. As for the unbelievers, I think Paul has put it best in 1 Cor 1:17-22, 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, so that the cross of Christ would not be made void.
    The Wisdom of God
    18 For the word of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written,
    ” I WILL DESTROY THE WISDOM OF THE WISE,
    AND THE CLEVERNESS OF THE CLEVER I WILL SET ASIDE.” 20 Where is the wise man? Where is the scribe? Where is the debater of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world? 21 For since in the wisdom of God the world through its wisdom did not come to know God, God was well-pleased through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe.

    Once again you have filled the gap beautifully, I do have some things to add that I believe would prepare us for the next phase of the book. Why was the dream represented in a statue form? I would wager that it is synonymous with all the kingdoms being represented are gentile originated kingdoms and they are sequential. I also believe that the 4th kingdom is where our focus should be,much like the seventh church in the early part of Revelations, the first three kingdoms are for a reference point, as well as the first six churches.

    In 63BC to Roman Empire succeeded the Greek Empire and out of this empire came the church age. While the church age ends at the rapture, the gentile age continues. When then does the gentile age come to an end? I would contend when Christ returns. But before this happens there would be 10 kingdoms only! Do we see this in the world today? Often people associate this with the European Union, does this body rule over the entire world? I’m not saying it is not possible that the antichrist can come from Europe, the only thing that we are sure of is, the antichrist would not be a Jew.

    I believe now, all those misguided views that Nero or Caesar were the antichrists and tribulation is going on already, this is utter foolishness espoused by men who have limited or no understanding of scriptures.

    The time would come when the entire world would be limited to 10 kingdoms. It may be impractical or impossible to imagine such a time in present common thinking. There would have to be great changes in the world, famine, diseases, millions of people dying, earthquakes etc. Doesn’t this sound much like tribulation?

    You raised an interesting point about “the Rock that is cut out of the mountain, but not by human hands, falls on the feet of iron mixed with clay and the statue crumbles to pieces like chaff on the threashing floor in the summer and the wind blows the chaff away never to be found again.” Why is this uncut stone so important?
    Ex 20:24-25
    24 ‘You shall make an altar of earth for Me, and you shall sacrifice on it your burnt offerings and your peace offerings, your sheep and your oxen; in every place where I cause My name to be remembered, I will come to you and bless you. 25 ‘If you make an altar of stone for Me, you shall not build it of cut stones, for if you wield your tool on it, you will profane it.
    God is saying that when men fashion the stone with his hands he would take pride in it and would want to share in the glory that belongs the God, hence the reason for the uncut stone, pure and off God alone.

    We are at the point where the gentile age has been established and the church age comes to an end. The gentile age continues up until Christ returns, there are several things that happen now from Revelations 5 to Revelations 19. The concern now is where we place these things – pre-trib, mid-trib or great-trib?

    Rev 5:1, 5 I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.

    There is tremendous significance of the book written inside and on the back. In Jewish history a book was commonly called a scroll and the only Jewish scroll that contains writings on either side is a land deed. Here we have the angel holding the deed to earth and who is worthy to claim this deed? Rev 5:9, ” Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. (Jesus Christ the worthy)

    Until next time, I thank God through Jesus for His word and the fact that we are chosen to discern its mysteries. I pray that we do so humbly and with the directions of the Holy Spirit.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hey Wesley,

      Speaking of wacko’s, I was reading some posts once on the internet and the topic was on the mark of the beast and some unbeliever put a post in response to what everyone was talking about and said, “Holy @#&*%! !!, I thought this was a joke, but you guys are serious! You need to get a grip on reality!” Something to that affect anyway and of course, those who were posting let him have it with the truth and I had to put in my comments in as well. But, that is the frame of mind that is out there. We of course should continue to be ready to share the word of God with believers and unbelievers alike, but we also have to remember that, some peoples names were just never written in the book of life and therefore, God will not call them; of course we don’t know who they are. Some people, even Christians are under the idea that salvation is a free-for-all, that is, that it is up to us to save them. But, God is soverign and he is the one who wrote the names of his choosen in the book of life and those are the people throughout history, that are going to respond to his call. For, is it not written:

      “I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy and compassion upon whom I will have compasion.”

      And didn’t say regarding Pharaoh, “I raised you up for this very purpose to display my power to the nations.”

      And also, he said before the twins were even born, “Jacob I have loved, but Esau I have hated.”

      So, when we preach the word of God, it is in hopes that we will be preaching and teaching to those of whom God foreknew and predestined and will call at the proper time. I’m convinced that we could preach and teach to those whose names were never written in the book of life and they would never come, simply because God will never draw them to Christ, but we preach and teach anyway because we don’t know who they are.

      I think you said it best with:

      “The preaching of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing.”

      And also, when I watch these National Geographic shows that are continually promoting evolution, it just makes me think of the saying:

      “Professing themselves wise, they become fools.”
      (Scientists)

      Yeah, in regards to people naming this person or that person as the antichrist, they are people who obviously do not study the word of God. The only person that will fit the bill of the antichrist is the one who has the following characteristics:

      1. He will make a seven year covenant with Israel and I believe Palestine, which will allow them to rebuild their temple on the orginal site of the Holy of Holies.

      2. He receives a fatal head wound and performs a counterfeit resurrection.

      3. He will break his covenant in the middle of that seven years and set up that image in the Holy place, causing the desolation of Jerusalem.

      4. The false prophet will be performing miracles, signs and wonders, even causing fire to come down out of heaven in full view of the inhabitants of the earth for the purpose of giving creditbility to the false christ.

      5. The beast will be proclaiming himself to literally be God, sitting in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

      6. The false prophet is going to have an image made of the false christ in his honor and anyone who will not worship that image is to be killed.

      7. A mark will come out that is designated as his mark and he will make all the other methods of buying and selling obsolete, leaving his mark the only way of crediting and debiting bank accounts via computer transaction.

      8. He will be putting to death all of those who profess Christ during the great tirbulation period by beheading.

      So, until we see someone fulfilling those things listed above, we can be sure that the antichrist was not Nero, Hitler, Stalin, Reagan, Obama or anyone else so far. These people speak about things they know nothing about. Paul called it, “godless chatter.”

      They make the same error when they attempt to establish dates for the return of Christ. Everytime I see some group does this, I already know how it is going to turn out, not happnin’! Just ask the Jehovah’s witnesses. Same thing with this 2012 deal. The people of the world and those who would call themselves christian’s, have no understanding of how the end is going to come about, even thoug God spells it out in sequence for us. The world is certainly not going to just explode all of a sudden, Ka-Boom! They don’t understand that, after the wrath of God has taken place, the world will be in shambles, but after that, there is still a thousand years that Christ must rule and we with him. It is also interesting that, as soon as the programs come on regarding Nostradamus or the Myan 2012 prediction that they are all excited and interested about it. Yet, you mention the word of God and everything that is written of how the world is going to end and how to escape it and they won’t pay any attention to that, because that would mean that they would have to confess that God exists and give their lives over to him.

      In regards to the ten kingdoms, I believe that this will be something that the beast will be responsible involved in setting up because it is written:

      “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom , but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.”

      So, I believe that these kings, who have no kingdom as of yet, will be made kings by the beast after only one hour. It seems that the beast just exalts them to king status in just one hour after meeting with them, which would of course be during the tribulation period.

      Yes, as you said, we are approaching the end of the church period, which will end at the moment the resurrection and catching away of the entire church takes place and the time of the gentiles will continue on. We are very close to this event my friend, very, very close. It is exciting to see the fulfillment of the mark of the beast technology happening before our very eyes, which is why I get so amazed when people say

      “oh, that’s not the mark of the beast, that’s just the next step in technology.”

      I laugh and say “Oh yeah, my mistake, it must some other device that is going to be implanted under the skin for the purpose of crediting and debiting your bank account and not the one they are currectly manufacturing!” It reminds me of those who believe that the mark of the beast is the observance of the sabbath on Sunday. I can just picture it in my mind, them standing in line waiting to get their RFID chip implanted under their right hand or forehead and they will be saying to one another:

      “Can you believe those guys who call themselves Christians, who celebrate the sabbath on Sunday and by doing so they have received the mark of the beast? ” ‘CLICK’ ” NEXT! Oh cool! That didn’t even hurt! Come on, lets go try em out by buying something!”

      Unfortunately, that is the reality of it. I have talked to one who said that they would receive a chip in the right hand or forehead, because they are so confident in their interpretation regarding the mark of the beast. Now, if Hank Hennigraff were here, he would be saying, “Don’t worry about it, it’s not a literal mark, right hand represents “doing” and “forehead” represents “The mind.” It’s all hyperbole, poetry and symbolism!”

      Yeah, like God is going to describe the time of his wrath that has been prophecied for thousands of years and then make it hyperbole, which means to be exerated or not to be taken literally.

      (God Speaking – Just to show how rediculous they are)

      Come on! I didn’t really mean that a third of the earth and trees were going to be burnt up! or that a third of the ships and sea creatures were going to be destroyed and killed from the gigantic waves of an asteroid hitting in one of the oceans. I didn’t really mean that a third of the population was going to be killed by 200 million mounted troops by fire, smoke and sulfur! I didn’t really mean that many people were going to die from drinking the water after that star that looks like a torch falls on the fresh water and lakes and makes it posionous! I didn’t really mean that a fourth of the earth was going to be killed by war, famine, disease and by the wild beasts of the earth! I didn’t really mean it when I said that an angel was going to be given the key to open the Abyss and let out demonic beings to torment men for 5 months with the stings like that of the scorpions! I didn’t mean it when I said that, I was going to strike the sun, moon and stars so that they give off a third less light! I didn’t mean any of that! Why would you believe what I wrote?

      God is not a man to lie, neither the Son of Man to repent! What he has written will most assuredly take place, no matter what these unspiritual, godless chatter boxes have to say with their deceiving doctrines. God’s word says, “It will happen” and they say “It’s not literal.”

      I wish the Lord would let me come back to the earth during the great tribulation for just a moment, so that I could appear before them and say “Told ya so!” and then disappear!

      I give thanks to God that he has opened the eyes of those who belong to him and are not deceived regarding his word and the deceptions that others teach. It is God who has allowed us to know his truth, otherwise we would be like them, blind!

  12. Hello Don,

    It’s pretty amazing that there exists so many different views on end times prophesies. While I am not affected by the senseless rantings of unbelievers and atheists, I am however, quite taken aback with incorrect theologies being bantered by Pastors and Theologists who are constantly misleading their congregations. They should take a long, hard look at John 21:15-17, 15 So when they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me more than these?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Tend My lambs.” 16 He said to him again a second time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” He said to Him, “Yes, Lord; You know that I love You.” He said to him, “Shepherd My sheep.” 17 He said to him the third time, “Simon, son of John, do you love Me?” Peter was grieved because He said to him the third time, “Do you love Me?” And he said to Him,” Lord, You know all things; You know that I love You. “Jesus said to him,” Tend My sheep.

    I have been having an online discussion with a Reverend no less and found it extremely disheartening that He truly believes:

    God has judged Israel for her disobedience once and for all in fulfillment of Dan 9:24f. by destroying Jerusalem (the fulfillment of the 70 weeks) (through the hand of the Romans “times of the Gentiles.”)

    This fulfillment happened under Ceasar Nero (Kaisar Neron) his Greek name’s numerology is the number of 666 and was Jacob’s trouble, the great tribulation. [seek Gentry’s outstanding work Perioulous Times]. This was also the message of Christ’s coming to reign which was prophesied by John in Patmos in the early 60’s AD (the book of Revelation) and fulfilled (chapters 4-19) in 64-70 AD.

    Yet the mystery, is that God still does have a plan for the descendants of Jacob (Israel according to the flesh) Paul reveals that “all Israel will be saved.” I interpret this to mean that Israel (by and large) will repent and believe the gospel and be regrafted into the tree of which they are the natural branches.

    The first resurrection (Rev. 20:1-10) is spiritual rebirth (compare to John 5:24 4 “I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life.) The second resurrection is physical resurrection (at the final day). Those who are born again, are therefore not harmed by the second death (final judgment) because they have believed the gospel.

    This is not an age of apostasy any more than the 1st century. The gospel is spreading and growing as rapidly as any other time in history. Yes, there are enemies (remember wheat and tares).

    The church is therefore not a parenthesis between God’s two seasons of working with Israel. The church, which began with Jews, and is comprised of Jews and Gentiles together in faith is the ultimate plan of God for the nations to bless the world through the seed of Abraham.

    When Israel turns to her Messiah in faith during “the church age” and all Israel is saved, the gospel will spread even more rapidly until glory of God covers the earth as the waters cover the sea (Habakkuk 2:14). “For if their rejection (Israel apostasy) is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance (their return in faith to their Messiah) be but life from the dead?” Romans 11:15.

    After much discussions that seem to be going no where, I’ve delivered my final post to try and open his eyes:

    UPON CHRIST’S ASCENSION INTO HEAVEN, THE HOLY SPIRIT DESCENDED TO EARTH THUS BEGAN THE CHURCH AGE

    CHRIST MEETING THE CHURCH IN THE AIR
    1 Thess 4:15-18
    15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive, and remain until the coming of the Lord, shall not precede those who have fallen asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God; and the dead in Christ shall rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

    This includes Translation Saints and First Resurrection Saints.

    DAY OF SALVATION WHERE THE CHURCH AGE ENDS

    THIS IS DISTINCT FROM CHRIST’S RETURN AS IT CLEARLY STATES THAT WE WHO ARE ALIVE TOGETHER WITH THE RESURRECTED DEAD IN CHRIST WILL BE CAUGHT UP IN THE CLOUDS TO MEET CHRIST IN AIR. AT THIS POINT CHRIST HAS NOT RETURNED TO EARTH TO BEGIN HIS REIGN, THE TEXT DOES NOT SAY THAT AS WELL THESE VERSES ARE LITERAL, NOT FIGURATIVE OR SYMBOLIC.
    ————————————————————
    DAY OF MAN
    1 Cor 4:3
    3 But to me it is a very small thing that I should be examined by you, or by any human court; in fact, I do not even examine myself.

    THE REVELATION – OLIVET
    Zech 14:4
    4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
    DAY OF MAN STARTS AT THE ASCENSION AND CONTINUES THROUGH THE CHURCH AGE INTO TRIBULATION AND ENDS AT THE OLIVET

    THROUGHOUT THIS PERIOD THE AGE OF THE GENTILES EXIST, IT BEGAN WITH THE BABYLONIAN KINGDOM AND WOULD END WITH THE 4TH KINGDOM OR IMPERIALISTIC RULE. THE CHURCH AGE WILL COME TO END AS BELIEVERS ARE NOT DESTINED FOR WRATH.
    ————————————————————
    DAY OF CHRIST
    Phil 1:6-10
    6 For I am confident of this very thing, that He who began a good work in you will perfect it until the day of Christ Jesus. 7 For it is only right for me to feel this way about you all, because I have you in my heart, since both in my imprisonment and in the defense and confirmation of the gospel, you all are partakers of grace with me. 8 For God is my witness, how I long for you all with the affection of Christ Jesus. 9 And this I pray, that your love may abound still more and more in real knowledge and all discernment, 10 so that you may approve the things that are excellent, in order to be sincere and blameless until the day of Christ;

    JUDGMENT SEAT OF CHRIST – (For Believers Only)
    2 Cor 5:10
    10 For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ, that each one may be recompensed for his deeds in the body, according to what he has done, whether good or bad.

    1 Cor 3:11-15
    11 For no man can lay a foundation other than the one which is laid, which is Jesus Christ. 12 Now if any man builds upon the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw, 13 each man’s work will become evident; for the day will show it, because it is to be revealed with fire; and the fire itself will test the quality of each man’s work. 14 If any man’s work which he has built upon it remains, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man’s work is burned up, he shall suffer loss; but he himself shall be saved, yet so as through fire.

    DAY OF CHRIST IN THE JUDGMENT SEAT STARTS AT THE END OF THE CHURCH AGE, CONTINUES THROUGH THE DAY OF THE ANTICHRIST WHICH INCLUDES TRIBULATION AND CULMINATES AT THE OLIVET

    THE REVELATION – OLIVET
    Zech 14:4
    4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
    ————————————————————
    DAY OF THE ANTICHRIST
    2 Thess 2:1-12
    2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved. 11 And for this reason God will send upon them a deluding influence so that they might believe what is false, 12 in order that they all may be judged who did not believe the truth, but took pleasure in wickedness.

    DAY OF THE ANTICHRIST STARTS AT THE END OF THE CHURCH AGE, CONTINUES THROUGH TRIBULATION AND ENDS AT THE OLIVET

    THE REVELATION – OLIVET
    Zech 14:4
    4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.
    ————————————————————
    DAY OF THE LORD
    Joel 2:1-5
    2 Blow a trumpet in Zion,
    And sound an alarm on My holy mountain!
    Let all the inhabitants of the land tremble,
    For the day of the Lord is coming;
    Surely it is near,
    2 A day of darkness and gloom,
    A day of clouds and thick darkness.
    As the dawn is spread over the mountains,
    So there is a great and mighty people;
    There has never been anything like it,
    Nor will there be again after it
    To the years of many generations.
    3 A fire consumes before them,
    And behind them a flame burns.
    The land is like the garden of
    Eden before them,
    But a desolate wilderness behind them,
    And nothing at all escapes them.
    4 Their appearance is like the appearance of horses;
    And like war horses, so they run.
    5 With a noise as of chariots
    They leap on the tops of the mountains,
    Like the crackling of a flame of fire consuming the stubble,

    Zech 14 : 1 – 21
    14 Behold, a day is coming for the Lord when the spoil taken from you will be divided among you. 2 For I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem to battle, and the city will be captured, the houses plundered, the women ravished, and half of the city exiled, but the rest of the people will not be cut off from the city. 3 Then the Lord will go forth and fight against those nations, as when He fights on a day of battle. 4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south. 5 And you will flee by the valley of My mountains, for the valley of the mountains will reach to Azel; yes, you will flee just as you fled before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah. Then the Lord, my God, will come, and all the holy ones with Him! 6 And it will come about in that day that there will be no light; the luminaries will dwindle. 7 For it will be a unique day which is known to the Lord, neither day nor night, but it will come about that at evening time there will be light. 8 And it will come about in that day that living waters will flow out of Jerusalem, half of them toward the eastern sea and the other half toward the western sea; it will be in summer as well as in winter.

    9 And the Lord will be king over all the earth; in that day the Lord will be the only one, and His name the only one. 10 All the land will be changed into a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem; but Jerusalem will rise and remain on its site from Benjamin’s Gate as far as the place of the First Gate to the Corner Gate, and from the Tower of Hananel to the king’s wine presses. 11 And people will live in it, and there will be no more curse, for Jerusalem will dwell in security.

    12 Now this will be the plague with which the Lord will strike all the peoples who have gone to war against Jerusalem; their flesh will rot while they stand on their feet, and their eyes will rot in their sockets, and their tongue will rot in their mouth. 13 And it will come about in that day that a great panic from the Lord will fall on them; and they will seize one another’s hand, and the hand of one will be lifted against the hand of another. 14 And Judah also will fight at Jerusalem; and the wealth of all the surrounding nations will be gathered, gold and silver and garments in great abundance. 15 So also like this plague, will be the plague on the horse, the mule, the camel, the donkey, and all the cattle that will be in those camps.

    16 Then it will come about that any who are left of all the nations that went against Jerusalem will go up from year to year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 17 And it will be that whichever of the families of the earth does not go up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, there will be no rain on them. 18 And if the family of Egypt does not go up or enter, then no rain will fall on them; it will be the plague with which the Lord smites the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 19 This will be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all the nations who do not go up to celebrate the Feast of Booths. 20 In that day there will be inscribed on the bells of the horses, “HOLY TO THE LORD.” And the cooking pots in the Lord’s house will be like the bowls before the altar. 21 And every cooking pot in Jerusalem and in Judah will be holy to the Lord of hosts; and all who sacrifice will come and take of them and boil in them. And there will no longer be a Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts in that day.

    Mal 4:5-6
    5 “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord. 6 “And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse.”

    Matt 24:21-23
    21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. 22 “And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short.

    Matt 24:29-31
    29 “But immediately after the tribulation of those days the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will fall from the sky, and the powers of the heavens will be shaken, 30 and then the sign of the Son of Man will appear in the sky, and then all the tribes of the earth will mourn, and they will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky with power and great glory.
    Acts 2:19-20
    19 ‘And I will grant wonders in the sky above,
    And signs on the earth beneath,
    Blood, and fire, and vapor of smoke.
    20 ‘The sun shall be turned into darkness,
    And the moon into blood,
    Before the great and glorious day of the Lord shall come.

    2 Thess 2:1-4
    2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

    DAY OF THE LORD STARTS AT THE END OF THE CHURCH AGE, CONTINUES THROUGH THE DAY OF CHRIST ON THE SEAT OF JUDGMENT, OVER THE ANTICHRIST, THROUGHOUT TRIBULATION TO THE END OF THE DAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS OR THE MILLENNIUM REIGN
    ———————————————————–DAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
    Rev 20:1-6
    20 And I saw an angel coming down from heaven, having the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand. 2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years, 3 and threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he should not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
    4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of the testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark upon their forehead and upon their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

    THE REVELATION – OLIVET
    Zech 14:4
    4 And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, which is in front of Jerusalem on the east; and the Mount of Olives will be split in its middle from east to west by a very large valley, so that half of the mountain will move toward the north and the other half toward the south.

    DAY OF RIGHTEOUSNESS STARTS AT THE OLIVET AND ENDS AT THE SECOND RESURRECTION
    ————————————————————
    DAY OF JUDGMENT (The Great White Throne Judgment)
    Rev 20:11-15
    11 And I saw a great white throne and Him who sat upon it, from whose presence earth and heaven fled away, and no place was found for them. 12 And I saw the dead, the great and the small, standing before the throne, and books were opened; and another book was opened, which is the book of life; and the dead were judged from the things which were written in the books, according to their deeds. 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. 14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. 15 And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

    THE WICKED DEAD ARE RESURRECTED AND JUDGED, SINNERS ARE CONDEMNED TO THE LAKE OF FIRE AND THE EARTH IS RENEWED
    ————————————————————
    DAY OF THE SON OF MAN MAKES WAY FOR THE DAY OF GOD
    1 Cor 15:24-28
    24 then comes the end, when He delivers up the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be abolished is death. 27 For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, “All things are put in subjection,” it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. 28 And when all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, that God may be all in all.

    THE NEW JERUSALEM DESCENDS FROM HEAVEN AND THE SON OF MAN (CHRIST JESUS) HANDS OVER THE KINGDOM TO GOD THE FATHER.

    Don we need to pray fervently for God to open the eyes of those who are propagating these false teachings. I glorify God when I see these things happening because Jesus said that would happen as the time draws near. My next post I would get back on track with our Revelations discussions. I think we are approaching a critical area in chapters 4 and 5. Till then may Jesus bless and keep you.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hi Wesley,

      Re: I have been having an online discussion with a Reverend no less and found it extremely disheartening that He truly believes:

      God has judged Israel for her disobedience once and for all in fulfillment of Dan 9:24f. by destroying Jerusalem (the fulfillment of the 70 weeks) (through the hand of the Romans “times of the Gentiles.”)

      Yes, it is sad that these people who are teaching others seem to be lacking understanding of God’s word. Does this reverend understand that the characteristics of the seventy ‘sevens’ is to:

      1. Finish transgression
      2. Put an end to sin
      3. To atone for wickedness
      4. To bring in everlasting righteousness
      5. Seal up vision and prophecy
      6. To anoint the most holy.

      These things have certainly not been fulfilled in Israel nor in the world. Though Jesus paid the price for sin, it is still growing strong. Everlasting righteousness is not here yet! And do we need to say anything about vision and prophecy? There is still much more that needs to be fulfilled as you know. These are the same type of people who say that Satan and his angels don’t exist, that their being mentioned is metaphorical for the evil that is in the world. They are the blind, leading the blind and you know what happens to them?

      These people that say that Revelation’s has been fulfilled, don’t take into consideration that, all that is going to happen is leading up to the return of Christ. The beast and his kingdom is in close proximity of the Lord’s return. For example, from the time that the abomination of desolation is set up, it will only be 3 1/2 years from then until Christ returns and it is, as you know, a physical, visual, literal return:

      “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. Shall it be! Amen.”

      Those like the Jehovah’s witness, who in the beginning of their sect were assigning dates as to when the Lord was going to return physically and after those dates had come and gone, they determined that he had come in 1914 (invisibly) and has been ruling through the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society ever since.

      I don’t see the Lord ruling with an iron scepter, do you?

      But Jesus warned us about these types of people and told us how he would come so that we would not be deceived:

      “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or’Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. ‘ For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.”

      This is why I can’t understand how these people get caught up in these sects where the leader is proclaiming himself to be the messiah and they believe it!

      Not only that, but in regards to those who say that Revelation has taken place, we have not yet seen the “day of the Lord”, that is the wrath of God, which is what the seven seals, trumpets and bowl judgments represent. Of course, they can get away with anything if they make the entire book of Revelation symbolic. Just like with those who hold to a historical view, who say that the seals, trumpets and bowls are related to historical events beginning in the first century, so that they are being fulfilled over these last 2,000 years. But this does not fulfill Jesus saying, that their will be a time of great distress unequaled from the beginning, until now or shall ever be, which culminates with the return of Christ.

      They also cite the following verse as proof that Jesus has already returned:

      “I tell you the truth, some who are standing here will not taste death before they seed the Son of Man comng in his kingdom.” (Matthew 17:28)

      So, they say, “ah ha! those who were standing there had to have died in the first century and therefore, The Lord had already returned before they died.”

      Wrong! Jesus prophecy regarding that there were some standing there that would not taste death before they saw the Son of Man coming in his kingdom was fulfilled six days later as we read on to the next verses.

      “After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light.”

      Those of whom Jesus said “There be some standing here who would not taste of death before they see the Son of Man coming in his kingdom” were John, Peter and James and the fulfillment of him coming in his kingdom, was that they saw his transfiguration, that is, they saw him in his glorified state, which fulfilled the prophecy.
      It had nothing to do with the resurrection and catching away nor his second coming.

      I think maybe in continuing with our discussion of Revelation and the related books and verses, that we should limit it to each topic or verse and then discuss it and then move on to the next, because there is too much information when covering too many things. What do you think?

      PS Does your wife study the things of God with you? Is she also interested in eschatology? It must be great to have a believing wife to share God’s word with.

      God be with you

  13. Hello Don,

    It is rather lengthy, some of our exchanges but I believe when you have this much knowledge about something as important as God’s word, it cannot be long enough. I do however agree that we should take things verse by verse and develop from there – we may find that would indeed have some extensive reading at times. God has called us to be a witness to His righteousness and a testament to His grace, we are amongst a privileged few to whom scriptures have been revealed and we must do our part in the “Great Commission” however big or small in accordance with His will. I don’t believe in chance or coincidence, I was drawn to this site by the leading of the Holy Spirit to teach the gospel the way it is meant to be taught. I don’t believe guys like us will receive any large following unless God purposes it to be so. We don’t preach prosperity for all and all the other niceties that have been spewing from the pulpits weekly that have folks paying out their hard earned dollars hoping to get some earthly riches. No! my friend, ours is a gospel of truth whether it hurts or brings joy, whether it makes sense or it appears to be foolishness.

    I am thankful though that we are not alone in this joyous task as we have both learned from others before us, contemporaneous eschatologists and those who simply love the world. I heard a pastor say once “if you want your congregation to stay predominantly small, teach the word of God the way it is meant to be taught, if you want all the trimmings and wealth, preach prosperity.” That is why I don’t fellowship with local church bodies – too much oil for sale and pray cloth, plant a seed here, there and everywhere we are fast becoming agriculturists! I prefer to fellowship online as I am doing with you and others, we are freely giving what has been received freely. Nothing to sell here my friend, only the word of God in its richest and truest sense. Rev 2:7
    ‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’

    My wife is the strong silent type that listens more than she talks. We listen or sometimes read verses in the bible and questions are raised. At this point is where my amazement is expressed, sometimes when I listen or read the analogies of the a-millennialist and the post millennialists I shout out, “babes, do you know that they are wrong? scripture does not say that! Look what scripture says….and these people are preaching and teaching? It’s great way to sharpen your spiritual weapon as the time fast approaches.

    Rev 4:1
    4 After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, “Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.

    This is a very important verse in the book of Revelations as it speaks about another sequence of events bringing and end to the things ‘that are’. This is where the fundamental differences start with the rapture and the return of Christ. Obviously Christ has laid out the events into 3 categories; things have seen, things that are, and after these things. If the book is read with these time sequences in mind then the true picture can be witnessed and witnessed to. If we are at the point of ‘after these things’, then the things ‘that are’ have come to an end – that is the church age (rapture) has come and gone but the day of man and the gentile age continues for a time. In my review of the false teachings it is impossible to fit all the pieces together, apart it may seem to make sense. I guess that is God’s way of showing what is right from wrong in this regard. Have you ever noticed that the false teachings never cover the entire book of revelations in one swoop, its always fragmented and the topics change with each new discussion, there is no flow to the discussion whatsoever? What are your thoughts on Rev 4: 1?

    Glory be to the most high God through the blessing of grace granted to us by Jesus Christ.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Morning Wesley,

      I pray you are well. Regarding Rev.4:1, I am in agreement with you in that, here I believe because of the clues that I mentioned before and those being that the word “Church” translated from the Greek word “Ekklesia” is used over and over again from chapter 1 through the very end of chapter 3 and then it just disappears. The next time that anyone is referred to as belonging to Christ, the word “Saint” is used, which is translated from “Hagios.” This tells me that the church is gone and that John here is representing the resurrection and catching away when he is told to “Come up here” by the voice that sounds like a trumpet. As I said in my other posting, I believe that this voice that sounds like a “Trumpet” is synonymous with the “Trumpet call of God” mentioned in 1Thes.4:16.

      Also, as John was told to write what he had “seen”, what is “now” and what will take place “later”, just as you mentioned, Rev.4:1 is the end of the “now” and the “Now” represents the church period, which is what we are still currently in. This is apparent because the voice that sounds like a trumpet tells him to “come up here and I will show you what must take place after this,” that is, after the “Now” or to put it plainly, come up here and I will show you what must take place after the church period. And so, the majority of the book of revelation is given to the “what must take place later,” which has not yet taken place.

      Following John being caught up, he records what he sees in heaven, regarding God’s throne, the sea of glass, the twenty four elders and the four living creatures. Then the call goes out by that mighty angel as to who is worthy to open the scroll and of course no one in heaven or on earth or under the earth, (which is referring to those in Hades), are worthy to open the scroll. I use thise verse as one of my proofs that after one dies their souls are conscious, for why would the angel say that no one in heaven or on earth or (under the earth) was worthy to open the scroll? It would be a moot point to mention those under the earth if in fact they were unconscious as the Jehovah’s witnesses and others proclaim. They like to run to that same scripture in Ecclessiastes, while ignoring all the other proof. The fact that the elder says that, no one was found worthy to open the scroll is also a proof (not that we needed it) to show that Mary was not equal with Jesus as the Roman catholic institution claims. For they say that she was without sin, accended to heaven, that she is required for redemption along with Jesus, and she remained a virgin, is queen of heaven, etc. So, if she was without sin and she was co-redeemer as they say, she would have been able to make the claim that she was worthy to open the scroll when the angel made the annoucement. Don’t get me wrong, Mary was and is a blessed woman, as she was chosen to bring the Lord into the world.

      Anyway, so after Jesus takes the scroll from the Father’s hand, the opening of the first seal begins the wrath of God. This is the white horse, which I believe represents the beast, as it states that he rides out to conquer and is bent on conquest, which would match what is said in Rev.13:7 and that is that he is given power to make war against the saints and to “conquer” them. Satan is always mimicing God and here the beast is on a white horse, not to be confused with the white horse that Jesus comes down from heaven on (Rev.19:11-16). Also, take notice that the rider here in the first seal is given a crown, where as the rider on the horse in Rev. 19:12 is said to have “many crowns.” Another thing to notice is that, this rider has a bow, but no mention of arrows, which would seem to indicate that he conquers through some other means, like intrigue. There is much information here that we could expound on, for example, the elders, the sea of glass and the four living creatures, which are also mentioned in Isaiah’s vision of heaven and in much detail in Ezekial’s account So, I will leave it open here and we can go over these things one by one.

      Your in Christ

  14. hello again,

    just a correction in the 2nd paragraph, should read “those who love the word.”

  15. Hello Don,

    Sorry for not responding earlier, had a terrible migraine and had to avoid as much light and sound as possible. Had a good nights rest and thanks be to God feeling much better now.

    So at the end of chapter 3, we see the church age effectively come to its predetermined end. ‘After these things’, appropriately headlines chapter 4. In Rev 4:5, 5 And from the throne proceed flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder. And there were seven lamps of fire burning before the throne, which are the seven Spirits of God;

    The seven spirits of God are seen in heaven at this point and this has a significant meaning. If a Christian is defined as one who has the indwelling of the Holy Spirit and collectively we are called the church be it Jews and/or Gentiles. I contend that the fact that the Holy Spirit is reunited with God (albeit for a time) means that something has happened on earth – the rapture. The removal of the Holy Spirit also has another significant meaning; 2 Thess 2:6-7
    6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way.

    The one who restrains is the Holy Spirit and when the Holy Spirit is removed the lawless one would be revealed, this takes place when the apostasy of the church takes place. You would recall that the letters to the seven churches were sequential and showed the maturing of the church to the point of the apostasy age – the one that we are in currently. 1 Tim 4:1-3, 4 But the Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons, 2 by means of the hypocrisy of liars seared in their own conscience as with a branding iron, 3 men who forbid marriage and advocate abstaining from foods, which God has created to be gratefully shared in by those who believe and know the truth.

    Paul is speaking about the falling away from false expressions of faith, this would be followed by a revival of faith or great surge in spirituality that would be predominantly false teachings by persuasive men much like what we are seeing today. Check out all the incorrect eschatology teachings out there even on this site. We are currently waging war on a couple of them. What most people don’t understand that the end of the church age would be preceded by spiritual falsehood not true teachings. This is in fact the great apostasy, 2 Thess 2:1-4, 2 Now we request you, brethren, with regard to the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and our gathering together to Him, 2 that you may not be quickly shaken from your composure or be disturbed either by a spirit or a message or a letter as if from us, to the effect that the day of the Lord has come. 3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction.

    We also see that the day of the Lord, this is commonly mistaken for judgment day when in fact this is tribulation that would follow the lawless one being revealed, Matt 24:21-24, 21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. 22 “And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short. 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him.

    With these unmistakable proofs, how can it be said that tribulation has gone, Nero is the Antichrist, the rapture and return of Christ are the same thing etc?

    You made an interesting observation about the rider having a bow but no arrows, I have a comment to make but at a later time.

    As always I pray the words written herein is blessed by our Saviour as taught by the Holy Spirit.

    in grace,

    Wesley

    • Hi Wesley,

      Good to hear you are feeling better. I’ve know people who had problems with Migraines and it didn’t look pretty. I’m thankful that I have never had to experience one of those. I might have a slight headache once per year, if even that.

      So, we have seen here in Rev.4:1 what we believe to represent the resurrection and catching away of the church because John is hearing the voice that sounds like a trumpet, which we believe is synonymous with the “trumpet call of God” found in 1 Thes.4:16 and therefore, signals the end of the church period.

      People are always making the claim that the early church did not preach a pretribualtional resurrection and catching away, but that is exactly what Paul preached. I have many of the proofs of this listed in my post entitled “The Resurrection and Catching Away.”

      Next John sees the throne and one who is sitting on it, which if we look at Rev. 5:7, we see that the one who is sitting there is God the Father. My conclusion for this is that, the Lamb looking as if it had been slain, is none other than Jesus Christ who is taking the scroll from the Father’s right hand. The phrase “Looking as if it had been slain” speaks of Christ’s crucifixtion, the Lamb who who was slain from the found of the world.

      Twenty Four Elders:
      In Rev.4:4 we are introduced to twenty four elders sitting on twenty four thrones which are dressed in white robes and having crowns of gold. I believe these to be representing Israel and the church. Twelve representing the twelve tribes of Israel and twelve representing the church. Another reason that I believe this is because, if we go to Rev.21:12 we find that the names of the twelve tribes of Israel are written on the gates of the New Jerusalem and on the twelve foundations of its walls are written the names of the twelve apostles. I believe that because of this, the twenty four elders representing Israel and the church is a good conclusion based on this. Also, the fact that they have white robes and crowns of gold would also suggest that they are of the church because, white robes are what is promised to overcomers in the church of Sardis found in Rev. 3:5, as well as the promise of the “crown of life” to overcomers in the letter to Smyrna. These promises of course are not restricted to these two churches, as each of the seven letters were to be read in all the churches and the promises extend to all individuals in Christ, throughout the entire church period until the end.

      The Four Living Creatures:
      This class of Cheribim, also called Seraphs, are witnessed, by Isaiah, Ezekiel and John found respectively in Isa.6:1-7, Ezekiel chapters 1,3 & 10 and Rev.4:6-10; 5:6-7, and are mentioned thoughout Revelation. They appear to be some speacial class of angelic being, Ezekiel giving a very detailed account of them. Here are some of their characteristics:

      1. Four faces: They each have four faces , one of a man, one of a lion, one of ox and one of angel and the faces are facing in each direction, north, east, west and south.

      2. Six wings: They have six wings, two covering thier faces, two covering their bodies and with two they fly. And when they are standing, the tips of their wings touch each other. Note: Ezekiel mentions 4 wings, while John and Isaiah mention them as having 6 wings.

      Covered with Eyes: The bodies of these living ones are also covered all over with eyes, on top and under their wings.

      When they Move: It is said that, when they move, they do not turn to move in that direction, but look straight ahead when they go. The reason for this is because, since they have four faces on each head, one is facing each direction and so when they move, they do not turn their heads to look in that direction that they are going, because they already have a face that is facing that way. ibelieve that that these are literal beings and not to be taken symbolically, being that there is so much detail about them.

      Holy, Holy, Holy: It is reported by both Isaiah and John that these four living ones never stop saying day and night Holy, Holy, Holy is the Lord God Almighty (Isa.6:3) and (Rev.4:8)

      Whirling Wheels: Ezekiel reports that these four living ones have what is called “Whirling Wheels” laying on the ground besides them where the spirit of the beings reside. When the living creatures move, the wheels move, because the spirit of the creature is in the wheel. It is also said that these wheels intersect each another and sparkle like Chrysolite. For a full description of the these living creatures and their characteristics, read the verses mentioned above.

      Note: Something I noticed is that, in both Isaiah’s and Ezekiel’s visions of the throne in heaven, neither mention the twenty four elders, but they are only mentioned by John in Revelation. This would make sense being that, both Isaiah’s and Ezekiel’s visions were in real time, which would mean that the reason that they do see the twenty four elders is because the church had not come into being yet and therefore, would not have been resurrected. John’s vision on the other hand, is of the future, which is why he sees the elders representing both groups as they were resurrected.

      Note: I believe that the”expanse” that is mentioned in Ezekiel 10:1 may be synonymous with the “sea of glass” mentioned in Rev.4:6.

      I will stop hear, as there is much information. Let me know your views and I would hope that others woudl join in on this discussion. Have a great night!

      Yours in Christ

  16. Hello Don,

    I’m going to take up from Rev 4: 4 regarding the 24 elders in white robes and crowned. Elders are regarded as leaders, deacons etc, but under Jewish traditions elders are old wise men. They are clothed in white, this means that righteousness was appropriated for their faith. the wear crowns, these crowns were stefanos or crowns earned, different from diadems which are crowns given through heritage.

    In 1Chronicles 24 (interesting) speaks of the elder ship coming to the nation of Israel in the priest view. They serve rotationally for 2 weeks period going before the throne of God in the temple as an intercessors. In the church age we don’t have need for intercessors as we are all kingdom of priests (1 Tim 5:17-18, 17 Let the elders who rule well be considered worthy of double honor, especially those who work hard at preaching and teaching.) and
    can approach the throne of God, Christ made this possible with His work on the cross. Gentiles and Jews are reunited and sinners are reunited with God, Eph 2:11-17, 11 Therefore remember, that formerly you, the Gentiles in the flesh, who are called “Uncircumcision” by the so-called “Circumcision,” which is performed in the flesh by human hands — 12 remember that you were at that time separate from Christ, excluded from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers to the covenants of promise, having no hope and without God in the world. 13 But now in Christ Jesus you who formerly were far off have been brought near by the blood of Christ. 14 For He Himself is our peace, who made both groups into one, and broke down the barrier of the dividing wall, 15 by abolishing in His flesh the enmity, which is the Law of commandments contained in ordinances, that in Himself He might make the two into one new man, thus establishing peace, 16 and might reconcile them both in one body to God through the cross, by it having put to death the enmity.-The church is pictured here.

    Just as the seven spirits of God is very significant to the proof of the rapture and the end of the church age, so is the 24 elders being in God’s throne room. I would wager that these 24 elders are the 24 intercessors required by Jewish customs. This is further proof of a pre-trib rapture. There are 3 schools of thoughts regarding the rapture; pre-trib, mid-trib and post-trib, the fact is only one is true and the other two are wrong. Not because there are senior pastors and scholars teaching mean that they are correct. Are we teaching the right thing? No one can say for certain but we are teaching the right thing!

    Another defining scripture of a pre-trib rapture can be found in John 14:1-3, 14 “Let not your heart be troubled; believe in God, believe also in Me. 2 “In My Father’s house are many dwelling places; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 3 “And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

    Where is Christ at this point? HE IS IN HIS FATHER’S HOUSE! When Christ returns to earth (second coming), it is for His millennial reign. The rapture therefore must be a pre-trib event because Christ will receive us to Himself where He is {I will come again, and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.}

    Does God need for all Christians to die before the rapture? Who are we to place limitations on God? This is the view of post-trib believers. The church most definitely would be martyred for during tribulation time the mark of the beast would be enforced and Christians would not take the mark and suffer the fate. Then we are too believe that Christ would have us suffer needlessly, return, take us away and bring us right back? Apostasy Don – false doctrines if I ever seen it. We have the truth and we are called to tell it.

    What about the mid-trib rapture believers? They need to read their bibles and use the passages to shed the light of truth rather than have an opinion, look for verses and claim that a false doctrine is right! Sorry for rambling but I am passionate about my God and I would not make His cross void.

    Before I close for today, let’s look at Rev 5:1, 5 And I saw in the right hand of Him who sat on the throne a book written inside and on the back, sealed up with seven seals.

    The book or scroll as it was commonly called in that era is notably written on both sides. In that era land was owned by the sovereign and can be reclaimed at any time. If ownership of the land is to be effected then a deed would be drawn up (size, borders, who has the right of use etc.) and it would be signed on the back by the sovereign and sealed with his seal to prevent tampering. The summary of terms would be on the outside to give an overview of the deed. If there was need for clarification as to the full contents then it would be taken before a judge and the seal would be opened. This a unique scroll as it is the only scroll that is in effect a land deed. Christ having purchased the land deed with His blood is therefore worthy of opening the seals. The Devil gained control of the world with Adam’s fall, then Christ defeated Him at the cross and now owns the world. He has not opened it yet but that does not mean that it isn’t it.

    It’s getting most interesting and I pray also that others join in as well and that the Holy Spirit continues to teach through us and convict and correct us where necessary.

    In grace,

    Wesley

  17. Hello Don,

    Picking up from where I left off yesterday, Rev 5:2, 2 And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, “Who is worthy to open the book and to break its seals?”

    Have you ever noticed that the impressions we get of angels are these lovely, peaceful and inviting beings? In my bible studies however every time I came across an angelic visit it seems to be followed by the angel telling the person ‘do not be afraid’. I think that angels are fearsome beings not these pretty artistic impressions that we have today. Just an observation.

    Rev 5:5-6, ” 6 And I saw between the throne (with the four living creatures) and the elders a Lamb standing, as if slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God, sent out into all the earth.

    The lamb standing as if slain, how do you stand as if slain? The term used in Greek (hozsphazo – hoz: as or like / sphazo – slaughtered), so the lamb gives the appearance of being slaughtered, but in fact this is a Greek euphemism and the lamb standing as if slain is really the lamb resurrected.

    Again we see the seven spirits of God representing the completeness of God, the Holy Spirit is therefore at this point is in Heaven. The restrainer is removed, there is a school of thought that the Christians who are indwelt by the Holy Spirit collectively are preventing the man of lawlessness from being revealed. So when the rapture takes place and Christians are taken where Christ is in His Father’s house then the lawless one would be made known. Scripture does not give a time frame from the rapture to the revealing of the lawless one. It is believed that the rapture may be the catalyst for this event, it is not in scriptures however, it may be years before this happens. James 5:7-10, 7 Be patient, therefore, brethren, until the coming of the Lord. Behold, the farmer waits for the precious produce of the soil, being patient about it, until it gets the early and late rains. 8 You too be patient; strengthen your hearts, for the coming of the Lord is at hand. 9 Do not complain, brethren, against one another, that you yourselves may not be judged; behold, the Judge is standing right at the door.

    Bear in mind that the rapture takes place in age of the seventh church, Christ had NOTHING good to say about this church because this is the apostate church. Apostasy, you would recall is a revival of the faith led by FALSE DOCTRINES. I would wager that after the rapture there would be many “Christians” left together with their church Leaders. These are the ones who gave an impression of christianity but is fundamentally false. If the world then sees all these false christians then it would be easy to say that the rapture did not take place to account for the millions that simultaneously disappeared.

    Rev 5:11-12, 11 And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,

    Here’s a treat for believers, at this point is where John has seen us, we may not remember him but he did see us!

    In my next post I will start looking at the Olivet Discourse as it ties to chapter 6 of Revelations the opening of the seals. Be blessed and faithful.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Good Day!

      Well, I am here at work doing my 12 hour shifts as I do every Saturday and Sunday. Hope all is well with you.
      Yes, in regards to the angels, people over the years have painted a picture of little delicate beings with wings and such, but in actuality, they are powerful beings having different classes and ranks. We can read of the stories in the OT where a single angel killed thousands of Israelites in one night and I am sure that they are the ones also responsibile for killing Israel’s enemies. I believe that they are all capable of carrying out God’s wrath, but they are also the bringers of messages, which is actually what the word “Aggelos” means “Messenger.” A good example would be when Gabriel appeared to Zechariah bringing him the news about his son to be born, John the Baptist. who also appeared to Mary regarding the birth of Jesus, as well as to Daniel. Also, the only angels mentioned as having wings are those four “Living Creatures” also called Cherubim’s. These four are a speacial class of angelic beings, as none of the other angels are described with the kind of characteristics that these have. For example, neither Michael or Gabriel are mentioned with the characteristics that these Cherubim have. We also see that at Christ’s return to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom, the angels are going thoughout the earth to collect (one taken) those who commit sin and do evil to be killed by that double-edged sword that procedes from the Lord’s mouth.

      In regards to the “He who is holding back the man of lawlessness, until he is taken out of the way”, as being the Holy Spirit, this seems to be the best interpretation. Therefore, if the “He” who is holding back the man of lawlessness, so that he can be revealed at his proper time is the Holy Spirit, then it would follow that we would also be removed being that the Holy Spirit indwells all believers.

      The phrase “looking as if it had been slain” is just another word for “killed.” This description is pointing to Jesus who was crucified. Not only that, but in Rev.5:5, the elder gives us the answer to who the slain Lamb is when he says:

      “Then one of the elders said to me, ” Do not weep! See, the Lion of the trib of Judah, the Root of David, has triumphed. He is able to open the scroll.”

      We know that “Lion of the tribe of Judah” and the “Root and Offspring of David: are both designations of Jesus because in Rev.22:16 Jesus identifies himself with one of those designations:

      “I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David and the bright Morning Star.”

      So, we know that Jesus is the Root and Offspring of David as well as the Lion of the tribe of Judah. He is the one that is worthy to break the seals on the scroll and to look inside, which is the title deed to the earth and everything in it. This is definitely after Christ was crucified as this vision is of the future, that is, the scroll hasn’t been opened yet. The vision of the Lamb being slain is simply to draw our attention to Christ who was crucified, ergo “slain.”

      In reagards to your previous reply, I guess we differ on who the twenty four elders are. I believe them to be made up of both Israel and the Church (12 and 12 = 24), because the names of the twelve tribes of Israel or written on the gates of the New Jerusalem and the twelve apostles names are written on the foundation walls of the New Jerusalem and therefore, twelve representing each group.

      In regards to the seven churches, I do not specifically ascribe that each church represents a period of time leading up to the end. That is to say, I don’t believe that just because the seventh church is the last church, that it pertains to the church at the end of the church period. I believe that all of the characteristics found in those churches, good and bad, can be found throughout the entire church period. In other words, I don’t believe that the first letter to Ephesus represents the characteristics of the churches from say 50 AD to 150 AD and that the second letter to Smyrna represents the characteristics of the church from 150 AD to 300 AD and so on. I believe that all the characteristics found in those seven letters can be found throughout the entire church period up to the very end. For example, regarding the second letter, which was to the church in Tyatira, the following is stated:

      “Nevertheless, I have this against you: You tolerate that woman Jezebel, who calls herself a prophetess. By her teaching she misleads my servants into sexual immorality and the eating of food sacrificed to idols.”

      I believe that this was a literal event at the time of that church, but that it is also a warning to all the churches throughout the entire church period. As an example, Just this last August the Evangelical Lutherans Church of America (ELCA), voted that those of “same-sex” orientation (the sexually immoral) could serve in positions of authority as pastors, teachers, preachers, etc. within the church. This letter I believe regarding the that Jezebel as well as the Nicholaitans and those who held to the teachings of Baalam, found in the other letters speak to all churches throughout all the ages, because sexual immorality was a problem in the beginning and is more so during these last days. So, I don’t believe that the letters are sequential leading up to the end of the church age, but that all the letters are for the entire church period, as all of these charactistics can be found in individuals as well as the church as a whole from the beginning of the church until now.

      Regarding the one being taken out of the way so that the man of lawlessness can be revealed, even though it is not stated in Scripture how long it will be from the time that he is taken out of the way to the time that he reveals himself, I’m betting that it will happen almost immediately, that is, that he will reveal himself as soon as this event take place. What better time for him to reveal himself than at a time when millions of people will have disappeared. I’m sure that he will have a good story to tell the world about what happened to all those people and it won’t be that we went to heaven.

      Regarding what you wrote:

      “Rev 5:11-12, 11 And I looked, and I heard the voice of many angels around the throne and the living creatures and the elders; and the number of them was myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands,

      If you are inferring that the myriads of angels are the church, I believe them to be the Holy angels of God and that this is not referring to the Church. Also, I don’t know what this means below?

      “Here’s a treat for believers, at this point is where John has seen us, we may not remember him but he did see us!”

      Remember, everything that John is seeing in his vision of heaven is future for him and still future for us as well. In other words, the scene in heaven that John is seeing hasn’t happened yet. The Lamb has not yet taken the scroll from the right hand of the Father and it has not yet been opened and therefore, neither have the trumpets been blown, nor the bowls poured out. John is seeing what will take place in heaven and on the earth in the future. After we are resurrected and caught up as seen in Rev.4:1, then Jesus will begin to open the scroll, leading into the trumpets, which lead into the bowl judgments.

      I will look forward to your next reply.

      Yours in Christ

  18. Hello Don,

    I trust this post finds you well and in the spirit. Regarding your last post about the church, you are right. It was not my intention to claim that traits from all the churches somehow vanished as each letter was dispensed, on the contrary; we see persecution still happening today in places like China, we have genuine churches today that preaches brotherly love etc. The reason why focus is placed on the 7th church is because that is the era (apostasy) which would give us a critical sign of Christ’s imminent return. The previous six’s primary importance was to lead us to the seventh church era. I hope this clarifies any misunderstanding.

    With regard to the timeframe between the rapture and the revealing of the man of lawlessness being almost immediate. I am of the same opinion, I am also aware that scripture deliberately did not give us any clue as to when this would happen. The question is why? I believe that this was deliberate because our nature would drive us to seeking the identity of the lawless one (we see it happening today) and giving rise to many false doctrines to support one person’s view from another as to why he/she believes this person or that person is the Antichrist. Scripture did not, however, leave us totally blind, the number of his name (666) was given for us to identify him as well, Christ went through great lengths in the Olivet Discourse to tell us what to look for and more importantly what NOT to look for. Daniel gives us an overview of his character, the apostles also gave us some manner of description of the man of lawlessness. I don’t believe that we should be overly focused on who this individual is, rather we should focus on discipling those that have been called to faith and sent our way for knowledge of the word of God.

    “Here’s a treat for believers, at this point is where John has seen us, we may not remember him but he did see us!” regarding this statement, it was an error on my part, the verse that should have been quoted is, Rev 5:13, 13 And every created thing which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and on the sea, and all things in them, I heard saying, “To Him who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb, be blessing and honor and glory and dominion forever and ever.” Thank you for the rebuke and the corrections, you see this is what a true Christian is, not someone who hardens their heart with the first message or explanation but someone who prays for the Holy Spirit to reveal truths.

    You are right in your point that these were future events from John’s and our perspective; that is why I said John saw us. He was looking at angels, the four living creatures, the elders and the church-which is us. A crude example of this would be us seeing a preview for an upcoming movie or TV program, we would see all the scenes and characters before and when we see the full length feature we will see all that was previewed plus much more.

    Chapter 6 in Revelations signals the opening of the seals, this is where I believe we should incorporate the Olivet Discourse in Matthew and Luke. Before proceeding it is important to view the scene and that can come from Matt 23:37-39, 37 “O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were unwilling. 38 “Behold, your house is being left to you desolate! 39 “For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, ‘ Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'”

    Christ after being rejected by the Jews by the actions of their leaders has ceased to reveal Himself as their Messiah. Christ is lamenting the fact that this particular generation has committed the unforgivable sin and there is nothing that He can do to save them. This has nothing to do with the church, the church goes up to meet Him in the clouds, His return would be heralded by what is quoted in verse 39″For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, ‘ Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'”

    So we are at a point where Christ is no longer speaking freely and openly with the public, He has now began to speak in parables and explaining only to the disciples. I imagine that He was going at it with the Pharisees with the gloves off and upon leaving the apostles probably trying to lighten the mood a bit say to Him, Matt 24: 1-2, 24 And Jesus came out from the temple and was going away when His disciples came up to point out the temple buildings to Him. 2 And He answered and said to them, “Do you not see all these things? Truly I say to you, not one stone here shall be left upon another, which will not be torn down.”

    Bear in mind that Jesus is talking to His disciples, not a crowd, it is an intimate discussion. We have the temple in focus now, Herod’s temple which was layered in gold from the description given to us by Moses. Then the disciples launch into questioning Jesus having been told that the temple would be torn down, Matt 24:3-4, 3 And as He was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to Him privately, saying, “Tell us, when will these things be, and what will be the sign of Your coming, and of the end of the age?” Luke 21:7
    7 And they questioned Him, saying, “Teacher, when therefore will these things be? And what will be the sign when these things are about to take place?”

    The disciples pose three questions to Jesus;
    1. When will these things be?
    2. What are signs of your coming?
    3. What are the signs of the end of the age?

    Jesus, however answers four questions, the fourth question was not asked but Jesus gave an answer because He did not want the disciples to be confused by the signs since they would be similar at different periods but not the signs of His return and the end of the age. Matt 24:4-9, 4 And Jesus answered and said to them, “See to it that no one misleads you. 5 “For many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am the Christ,’ and will mislead many. 6 “And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, and in various places there will be famines and earthquakes. 8 “But all these things are merely the beginning of birth pangs. Luke 21:8-11, 8 And He said, “See to it that you be not misled; for many will come in My name, saying, ‘I am He,’ and, ‘The time is at hand’; do not go after them. 9 “And when you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified; for these things must take place first, but the end does not follow immediately.”
    10 Then He continued by saying to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, 11 and there will be great earthquakes, and in various places plagues and famines; and there will be terrors and great signs from heaven.

    At my next posting I would seek to explain these signs as it relates to

    • Hello Wesley and Happy Holidays!

      Yes, you are correct in that people would be and are driven to know who the antichrist is. In fact, we have seen throughout the centuries that people cannot resist attempting to identify him, Nero, Stalin, Hitler, Reagan, Obama, the three Stooges, etc. The fact is, that the only one who can truely be the antichrist is the one who fits the description that is found of him in the word of God, mainly in Daniel, 2 Thessalonians and Revelation. This person would have to be one who makes a covenant (contract) with many (ibid-Israel and Palestine), he will receive a fatal head wound and perform a mock resurrection, will have the false prophet as his right hand man performing counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders in full view of the people of the earth. This he does to give credibility to the antichrist. In the middle of that seven year period, he will set up that abomination in the holy place, which causes the desolation of Jerusalem and will be proclaiming himself literally as God or anything that is called God. It is because people love sensationalism that they speak about things that they don’t understand. With all of the above characteristics mentioned about this man, no one should be making guesses that it is this person or that person. It is very easy to identify him, as he will perform all of the above. As I said, those who are ignorant of God’s word are those who are proclaiming these things. And because of their ignorance, they will be the ones who will be deceived when the false christ’s and thee false prophet’s come, because they are ignorant of how the Lord said that he would come.

      “So if anyone tells you, ‘There he is, out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, in the inner rooms,’ do not believe it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west , so will be the coming of the Son of Man.”

      This is why we see specials on tv of some guy proclaiming to be the messiah and he has a bunch of followers and usually a harem of girls and woman. If they had read and believed what God’s word has to say about it, they would know that his coming would be a main event that would be seen by every one, including those in Hades. Look at the “Peoples Temple” cult lead by Jim Jones in the 70’s and how he got all of those people to commit suicide or the cult of the Branch Davidian’s lead by David Koresh, not to mention all the nuts that we currently have who are professing themselves to be the messiah. People are just swayed by all kinds doctrines and teachings. They’re blind! The truth is hidden from them. Anyway, until a man comes along fulfilling the characteristics that are written in the word of God as listed above, anyone else is not him, period!

      Regarding:

      “The disciples pose three questions to Jesus;
      1. When will these things be?
      When they ask “When will this happen,” they were referring to his response in regards to “not one stone will be
      left upon another,” which of course was speaking of the destuction of the temple and its buildings by Titus and his
      legions in 70 AD. This fulfilled the first question.

      2. What are signs of your coming?
      The signs of his coming of course would be all the things he mentions in Matthew chapter 24:

      * False prophets and false Christ’s will deceive many.
      * Wars and rumors of wars
      * Nation rising against nation
      * Famines and earthquakes
      * Persecution and death of believers by all nations
      * Apostasy resulting from that persecution and the threat of death
      * The love of many will grow cold because of the increase of wickedness.
      * The abomination that causes desolation standing in the holy place.
      * The sun is darkened, the moon will not give its light and the stars (meteorites/asteroids) will fall from the sky.
      * Heavenly bodies will be shaken.

      Of course, all of the above coincide with what is written in Revelation.

      3. What are the signs of the end of the age?

      Number three is synonymous with number two, but the actual sign of his immediate return will be of course,
      when Jesus actually decends from heaven, with us and his angels following behind him. Question number two precedes
      number question number three and can be summed up with the following:

      “Look, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples
      of the earth will mourn because of him. So shall it be! Amen.”

      This is one of the differences that those who preach a post tribulation resurrection and catching away fail to account for.
      Regarding the resurrection and catching away of the church, Jesus says “no man knows the day or hour,” where as with his second coming to set up his millennial kingdom, there are signs gallor! If I was here during that time period, I could follow it along like a road map. All I would have to do is watch as each of the seals, trumpets and bowls took place. As soon as I saw the abomination set up in the temple, I would know that I have approximately 3 1/2 years left. Then, when the seventh bowl was poured out, the earth would experience the greatest earthquake in the history of the world, accompanied by the islands and mountains disappearing, plus, 100 lb hailstones falling to the earth. At that point I would be saying, “ok, the Lord is just moments or days away from descending from heaven, get ready!

      Not so with the resurrection and catching away. Of that event, Jesus said:

      “If the owner of the house had known at what time of the night the thief was coming, he would have kept watch and would not have let his house be broken into. So you must also be ready, because the Son of Man will come at an hour when you do not expect him.”

      The verse above speaks of Jesus coming without notice, without any signs, so that we have to be ready for whenever he shows up, which being ready is going from faith to faith, praying, loving all people as our selves and reading his word and putting it into practice. Basically, living as though we were anticipating his arrival at any moment. Regarding his second coming, I could pretty much tell by the sequence of events regarding the seals, trumpets and bowls, specifically the characteristics of the seventh bowl, that he was coming. No surprise there!

      Another issue with this is that, people make the resurrection and catching away synonymous with the second coming of Christ. But the differences are, at the resurrection and catching away of the church, Jesus does not come to the earth, but only meets us in the “air” of whom he has just resurrected from the dead and those who were still alive and caught up with them and takes us back to the father’s house. In the resurrection mentioned in Rev.20:4, there is only a resurrection and no catching away of the living in Christ mentioned. Also, those that are resurrected here are only those who come out of the great tribulation period, who will be beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and the word of God and who will have not worshiped the beast or his image or received his mark. Also, if the resurrection of the church were to take place at Christ’s return to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom, we would be resurrected and caught up in the air only to immediately return to the earth and there would be no time to go back to the Father’s house. The only people in view in Rev.20:4 are those great tribulation saints who are killed during that period and who are resurrected when Jesus comes. I reiterate, the word “church” disappears at the end of Revelation chapter 3 and is gone and no is longer used to describe a believer, ergo, the church is gone. That in conjunction with the “voice that sounds like a trumpet” which says “come up here” are all clues that God left to point us to this conclusion. There are those of the post tribulational view that discard these clues saying that it is just fanciful and wishfull thinking. Albeit, they are more concerned with proving their interpretation than finding out the truth. I’m more concerned with the accuracy of God’s word, whatever conclusion that it leads me to. It just so happens that, it does not lead me to a post or mid-tribulational view. The main factor is that, Paul said that we are not appointed to God’s wrath, which is axactly what will be taking place leading up to Christ’s return to the earth and therefore, we cannot go through it. The wrath of God is not the same as experiencing tribulation and persecution by men and the powers of darkness. The wrath of God is that “day of the Lord” that has been prophecied from the beginning, which is God directly pouring out his wrath upon an unbelieving, unrepentant and sinfull world. The true church has already repented and are having faith. It would make no sense for God to pour out his wrath upon his church who have already repented and received Christ. Not to mention that in the letter to Philadelpia, Jesus gave the following promise:

      “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”

      That hour of trial is synonymous with what he said in Matthew 24:21:

      “For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now– and never to be equaled again.”

      And there many other clues regarding the issue of the resurrection and catching away taking place prior to the wrath of God. I have them all listed in my other post called “The Resurrection and Catching Away.”

      I will look forward to your next posting.

      Happy Holidays to you and your wife.

      Yours in Christ

  19. Hi again, made a boo boo and clicked the submit button. At my next posting I would seek to explain these signs as it relates to the past, present and future. I pray that God blesses us with the wisdom to continue and that others would soon join in. may the Holy Spirit correct where I am wrong or may have unintentionally overlooked something in Jesus’ name.

    In grace,

    Wesley

  20. Hello Don,

    Happy holidays to you and yours. I wish peace that can only come from unwavering faith in our Lord and Savior Jesus.

    I’m digressing a bit off topic in this post for good reason, it has to do with the holidays as we know it today. Every where I look I see Santa Claus and Christmas trees, you would think that Old Nick was nailed to the cross if you did not know better!

    Often we look for signs of false teachers and prophets and signs but one of the most glaring sign has been with us for ages – Santa Claus! There is absolutely nothing about Christmas being about the celebration of our Savior’s birth. What is going on my friend? We need to start teaching our children and maybe some adults the truth. What’s this nonsense about the spirit of Christmas?

    I went to get some baby diapers yesterday at PriceMart and the line was moving slow so I took a long hard look at the Christmas shoppers, I wondered how many of them know how close the time is for the rapture and other life altering changes that are at the door? People seem genuinely unconcerned with their spirituality and more occupied with worldly things. I have to keep constant check of myself and pray not to fall back into that worldly way of living, I pray as often as i can for the Holy Spirit to take the lead in my life and teach me in the ways of the Father and glorify Jesus with every breath.

    Don, my brother I am convinced that we are the last generation and we would alive to be caught up to meet Christ in the air. When I look around at the world today and reflect on prophesies its not hard to come to this conclusion. The world is going in the direction that the Father foresaw and prophesied through His servants thousands of years ago for revelation precisely in our lifetime, much of what was hidden and unexplainable and misunderstood are now plain as day for believers. The economic crisis Sept 2008 has clearly set the world on course for a shift in world power to the remnant of the 4th kingdom – Europe. The crisis continues and so does the propaganda telling people the worse is over, do you see what is happening in Dubai?

    Anyway, enjoy the holidays in the right way and God’s blessings to you and yours. I’ll continue my regular post on Saturday.

    Peace be with you,

    Wesley

  21. Happy Holidays Don,

    I pray that you had a spirit filled holiday and joy erupted in your heart knowing that the savior was born for us to be redeemed to the Father.

    We were looking at the Olivet Discourse at this point in our Revelations discussions. As is evident from the proliferation of false teachings in recent times, the Olivet Discourse holds center stage for believers. Every where you turn some wacko is coming out of the woodwork with a time when Christ will return, we even have repeat offenders who failed to see their first or second predictions come true are yet again throwing out wild ideas for Christ time to return. As a believer you have to wonder if these nut jobs are reading the Bible at all! NO ONE KNOWS THE HOUR OF CHRIST’S RETURN (NOT EVEN CHRIST) BUT THE FATHER!!! It amazes me that these people have such large followings who believe anything, but, that’s clear evidence of the Apostasy that was prophesied to take place in the era of the 7th church – a revival of faith underpinned by false teachings and prophesies.

    In the early 1900’s the founding fathers of the Jehovah’s witness movement and Seventh Day Adventist were busy prophesying the return of Christ. But they ignored that Christ said there would be: Luke 21:9-11, 9 “And when you hear of wars and disturbances, do not be terrified; for these things must take place first, but the end does not follow immediately.” 10 Then He continued by saying to them, “Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, Matt 24:6-7, 6 “And you will be hearing of wars and rumors of wars; see that you are not frightened, for those things must take place, but that is not yet the end. 7 “For nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom, Christ was talking about World War as one of the early warning signs not civil war and others of the like. In fact when WWI came about there was a cry that it was the war to end all wars, then came WWII. Another critical sign ignored was the fact that Israel was not a nation since AD70, Israel only became a nation in 1948. Now we have the would be scholars with calculators in hand busily adding a generations age (40 or 70) to 1948 and predicting that 1988 for sure while their peers differed with 2018, Mayan followers holding firm to 2012 and yet another group still trying to calculate the age of the earth to see how close age of man’s rule is to 6,000 years so when we add Christ’s 1,000 years reign we get a 7,000 years total. Am I reading the wrong book? Where are these crazy ideas coming from? Thank God for His prophesies in this regard.

    We have untold number of diseases, increases in the frequencies and intensities of earthquakes and other natural disasters that are happening in our lifetime. Would our generation witness the rapture? I think so! All it takes is ONE event to spark a wave of events. We have the pre-tribulation predictions, the mid-tribulations and great tribulations predictions as well. The most notable one being the rise of the man of lawlessness or the Antichrist to rule for 7 years. I believe when people read about the 7 year period somehow it does not fully register what a woeful time this would be. The series of natural disasters that would literally destroy millions of people as well as countries, islands etc.

    Until next time, I pray that God guides our posts through the Holy Spirit that was made possible by Christ work on the cross.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hi Wesley,

      Hope your holidays are going well. Regarding the date-setting of the Jehovah’s Witnesses, which was lead by Charles Taze Russell. They continued to set dates for Christ’s return and when that failed to happen, they concluded that he had come “invisibly” and has been ruling through the Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society since 1914. This of course contradicts God’s word in that, of Jesus’ return to set up his millennial kingdom the word of God says:

      “Look, he is coming with the clouds and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him. shall it be! Amen.”

      They have a lot of strange beliefs not supported by the word of God. They also believe that Michael the archangel took on flesh and was born as Jesus and that Jesus is a created being and the brother of Lucifer. Of course, they identify the 144,000 as being themselves, even though the word of God points us to these being 12,000 out of the twelve tribes of Israel. Yes, we are seeing that as time goes on people are not enduring sound doctrine, as they are moving further and further away from the truth of God’s word as his word makes clear.

      “The Spirit clearly says that in the latter times some will abandon the faith and follow deceiving spirits and things taught by demons.”

      Regarding what you said, about people reading about the 7 year period and it somehow not fully registering what a woeful time this would be. I believe that Jesus conveyed the idea of what a terrible time it was going to be when he said the following:

      “For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world untill now–and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.”

      We get a more detailed understanding as to this time of great distress when we read about the wrath of God being poured out in the form of the seven seals, trumpets and bowls. With just the accumulation of the first four seals and the sixth trumpet alone, 50% of the earth’s population is killed and that is without taking into consideration the fatalities caused by the first, second and third trumpets. By my guestamation, we could add at least another billion and a half to that number of fatalities. When you consider the interpretation of those who hold to a historical view, of the seals, trumpets and bowls, then, Jesus’ prophecy of a “time of great distress” and “except those days were shortened no one would survive” would have no literal fulfillment. Thank God for the truth of his word and that he reveals it to some.

      We live in a time where, we have the technology for the mark of the beast literally manifesting and we still have those who, though they see this technology, hold to a symbolic interpretation of the mark, that is, that it is not a literal mark. The right hand and forehead are symbolic for “doing” and “the mind” respectively and the conclusion is that, the observance of the Sabbath on Sunday is the receiving of the mark of the beast. Even though we can see the technology of a literal device that goes under the skin for the purpose of making purchases, they say, “Oh, this is just the next logical step in technology!” Yeah, a technology that just happened to be prophecied by a man who was exiled to an island for sake of Christ and the word of God 2000 years ago. Some coincidence, huh? I tell you, whatever day a person observses the Sabbath is not going to be a concern with God, but receiving that mark of the beast to be able make a living will be. A good rule of thumb for anyone is that, when the world comes out with something that goes into the right hand or forehead which allows you to make purchases (and it has), steer clear of it, even unto death. Currently we are using cash, checks, credit and debit for our buying and selling, but you watch, we will begin to see this subdermal chip technology begin to run parallel to these other methods of buying and selling and it will continue to spread so that more and more people will begin to use this technology, just like they do with the debit card for point of sale purchases. This is the very reason that I moved away from using credit and debit cards, especially swiping the card to make purchases. If we cannot deny using this technology for the sake of conveinence, what would we do if our very lives depended on it? After all, whose side are we on anyway?

      Yours in Christ – Don

  22. Greetings Don,

    The following is for you my friend:-
    1 Cor 1:4-9, 4 I thank my God always concerning you, for the grace of God which was given you in Christ Jesus, 5 that in everything you were enriched in Him, in all speech and all knowledge, 6 even as the testimony concerning Christ was confirmed in you, 7 so that you are not lacking in any gift, awaiting eagerly the revelation of our Lord Jesus Christ, 8 who shall also confirm you to the end, blameless in the day of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9 God is faithful, through whom you were called into fellowship with His Son, Jesus Christ our Lord.

    To the topic of discussion, Revelations. We were at the point of scriptures contained in Matt and Luke commonly called the Olivet Discourse. Christ in His teachings told the disciples about “birth pangs”, history evidences that in the last 100 years there has not been a single day of peace on a global scale; some part of the world a war is going on be it civil, tribal or other war is going on. Earthquakes have been increasing steadily in frequencies and intensities, diseases are on the rise with new and increasingly difficult to treat or cure. All these are birth pangs and they were slow at first but they have been happening at a faster pace in recent times.

    The globalization of our planet makes it impossible for an event to happen in isolation; Sept 11th, global security is a priority for all countries with a fear of terrorism, Boxing Day Tsunami killed 300K people countless losses that affected many regions of the world, the financial crisis that is currently plaguing the entire world and literally paving the way for the 4th kingdom to once again take center stage. If we look at AD70, the fall of Jerusalem and think that there would not be another war against the Holy City, then we need to look at the scriptures again. Luke 21:12-19, 12 “But before all these things, they will lay their hands on you and will persecute you, delivering you to the synagogues and prisons, bringing you before kings and governors for My name’s sake. 13 “It will lead to an opportunity for your testimony. 14 “So make up your minds not to prepare beforehand to defend yourselves; 15 for I will give you utterance and wisdom which none of your opponents will be able to resist or refute. 16 “But you will be delivered up even by parents and brothers and relatives and friends, and they will put some of you to death, 17 and you will be hated by all on account of My name. 18 “Yet not a hair of your head will perish. 19 “By your endurance you will gain your lives. 20 “But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then recognize that her desolation is at hand. 21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, and let those who are in the midst of the city depart, and let not those who are in the country enter the city; 22 because these are days of vengeance, in order that all things which are written may be fulfilled. 23 “Woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days; for there will be great distress upon the land, and wrath to this people, 24 and they will fall by the edge of the sword, and will be led captive into all the nations; and Jerusalem will be trampled under foot by the Gentiles until the times of the Gentiles be fulfilled.(This was AD70 prophesy). The disciples were the target audience at this point.

    Matt 24:9-28, 9 “Then they will deliver you to tribulation, and will kill you, and you will be hated by all nations on account of My name. 10 “And at that time many will fall away and will deliver up one another and hate one another. 11 “And many false prophets will arise, and will mislead many. 12 “And because lawlessness is increased, most people’s love will grow cold. 13 “But the one who endures to the end, he shall be saved. 14 “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come.

    15 “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; 17 let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; 18 and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak. 19 “But woe to those who are with child and to those who nurse babes in those days! 20 “But pray that your flight may not be in the winter, or on a Sabbath; 21 for then there will be a great tribulation, such as has not occurred since the beginning of the world until now, nor ever shall. 22 “And unless those days had been cut short, no life would have been saved; but for the sake of the elect those days shall be cut short. 23 “Then if anyone says to you, ‘Behold, here is the Christ,’ or ‘There He is,’ do not believe him. 24 “For false Christs and false prophets will arise and will show great signs and wonders, so as to mislead, if possible, even the elect. 25 “Behold, I have told you in advance. 26 “If therefore they say to you, ‘Behold, He is in the wilderness,’ do not go forth, or, ‘Behold, He is in the inner rooms,’ do not believe them. 27 “For just as the lightning comes from the east, and flashes even to the west, so shall the coming of the Son of Man be. 28 “Wherever the corpse is, there the vultures will gather.

    It is a common error by many believers, teachers, pastors and scholars that the account given by Luke and Matt are both relating to the events of AD70. In Luke, Christ was speaking to the disciples about the fall of Jerusalem and what they should do. In Matt Christ is talking about the day of the Lord or tribulation, the target audience cannot be the disciples because they would have gone to sleep already, He must therefore be speaking to the nation of Israel at this point.

    I look forward to your comments on these important texts.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Greetings my friend,

      Regarding: the target audience cannot be the disciples because they would have gone to sleep already, He must therefore be speaking to the nation of Israel at this point.

      Consider this, at times when Christ revealed future events to his disciples, though he is speaking to them, his target was those who would be of those saints who would be her during that generation when that event took place. For example, when Jesus says the following:

      “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel (let the reader understand) then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house.”

      Though Jesus is telling his disciples this, we know that they have since long been dead, which means that, Jesus was warning those who would be present in Israel during the generation that the abomination of desolation was set up, which we know is an event that will be performed by that beast and the false prophet. Everytime Jesus reveals something to his disciples, he is not going to stop after he gets done telling them and then say, “by the way, what I just told you is something that is going to happen in the far future and so, you don’t need to worry about it, it is not for you.”

      Remember what Jesus told his disciples just before he accended? They asked him:

      “Lord, are you at this time going to restore the kingdom to Israel?”

      And Jesus said, “It is not for you to know the times or dates the Father has set by his own authority.”

      Therefore, everytime Jesus told them something, he did not stop and explain to them saying, “Though I’m telling you about this, you’re gonna be long dead before it happens, so don’t worry about. I’m telling you this so that when you write it down, those during a later generation will know what it means.”

      That is why we always see the writers in any of the books referring to these events as being “Soon” or “Near,” meaning imminent, because they were not privy to when it was going to happen. John gives us an example of this in the beginning of Revelation:

      “The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his serveants what must soon take place.”

      John says what must “soon” take place. Well, we know that the majority of the book of Revelation from chapter 4 on has yet to begin, yet he uses the word “soon.” It has been 1900 years since he wrote that. I say, that it is soon to take place in regards to God’s time table, that being: “a day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.” In other words, time has no bearing with God who operates in eterity. A thousand years to us, is a thousand long years. John, just like the other disciples, was not privy to the times inwhich these things would take place and so they are imminent.

      Here is another example from Matthew 24:26-27:

      “So if anyone tells you , ‘There he is, out in the desert, do not go out; or, ‘Here he is, int he inner rooms,’ do not be lieve it. For as lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coming of the Son of Man.”

      Obviously, this has to do with the time of Christ’s second coming, when he sets up his millennial kingdom up on earth, but it is the same here, though Christ was talking to his disciples, this was not going to happen during their lifetime, yet he didn’t didn’t stop to inform them of that. The information in Mt.24 is synonymous with the information of Luke 21 and Mark 13, with suttle differences. I believe that Jesus is speaking to both Israel and the saints that will be here during that time period, because though the abomination of desolation is related to the temple, it will affect the entire world, as will the mark of the beast. Where Mt.24, Mark 13 and Luke 21 leave off, Revelation gives more detail, because during the time when the abomination of desolation is being set up, the wrath of God will also be being poured out upon the earth, which affects everyone on the entire planet and not just Israel.

      Yours in Christ – Don

  23. Hello Don,

    May God’s divine blessings be upon you and as we fellowship online the Holy Spirit continues to guide our thoughts and our words. We lay before the feet of our savior Christ Jesus all our petitions and humble ourselves to His will, Amen.

    We have completed quite a lot so far; Chapters 1-5 of Revelations, the Olivet Discourse, some chapters in Daniel as well as other books. We now come to chapter 6 of Revelations-the seal judgments. The time period in which these and other events are critical as well as the target audience; I believe from chapter 4 of Revelations the primary audience is the nation of Israel because the church as we have already seen was raptured, this does not negate the fact that the age of the gentiles continues and will do so until Christ returns. Before we get into details of the seal judgments we must first establish the foundation for the tribulation period, seven years of great tribulation. To do so we need to look at Daniel.

    In Daniel 9: 1-19 the prophet is reading one of his contemporaries, Jeremiah and is convinced that tribulation has come and begins with prayer and supplication for the nation of Israel to be restored. Daniel was speaking from the time of the Babylonian Kingdom into the Medo-Persian Kingdom and believed the 70 weeks had passed for Israel in captivity and they would soon be restored. Were it not for the grace of God Daniel would not have been given the truth as is written from verse 20 onward.

    Dan 9:20-27
    20 Now while I was speaking and praying, and confessing my sin and the sin of my people Israel, and presenting my supplication before the Lord my God in behalf of the holy mountain of my God, 21 while I was still speaking in prayer, then the man Gabriel, whom I had seen in the vision previously, came to me in my extreme weariness about the time of the evening offering. 22 And he gave me instruction and talked with me, and said, “O Daniel, I have now come forth to give you insight with understanding. 23 “At the beginning of your supplications the command was issued, and I have come to tell you, for you are highly esteemed; so give heed to the message and gain understanding of the vision.

    24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place. 25 “So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress. 26 “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined. 27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”

    24 “Seventy weeks have been decreed for your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression, to make an end of sin, to make atonement for iniquity, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most holy place.
    Daniel has been told that 70 weeks or 490 years of tribulations must be completed first before the Mosaic Covenant is replaced with everlasting righteousness, this is literally Christ’s millennial reign.

    25 “So you are to know and discern that from the issuing of a decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until Messiah the Prince there will be seven weeks and sixty-two weeks; it will be built again, with plaza and moat, even in times of distress.
    It was revealed to Daniel the time frame for the rebuilding of Jerusalem, the coming of the Messiah, His eventual death and the remaining time period that must be accomplished before the Messiah’s return. What we then have is 69 weeks completed but 1 week still to be completed, this week is the final 7 years of tribulations.

    26 “Then after the sixty-two weeks the Messiah will be cut off and have nothing, and the people of the prince who is to come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. And its end will come with a flood; even to the end there will be war; desolations are determined.
    After the rebuilding of the city of Jerusalem, the people were at the entrance of the great city exactly 434 years later waving palm branches awaiting the arrival of their Messiah, John 12:12-16, 12 On the next day the great multitude who had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 13 took the branches of the palm trees, and went out to meet Him, and began to cry out, “Hosanna! Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel.” 14 And Jesus, finding a young donkey, sat on it; as it is written, 15 “Fear not, daughter of Zion; behold, your King is coming, seated on a donkey’s colt.”

    27 “And he will make a firm covenant with the many for one week, but in the middle of the week he will put a stop to sacrifice and grain offering; and on the wing of abominations will come one who makes desolate, even until a complete destruction, one that is decreed, is poured out on the one who makes desolate.”
    Here we have the beginning of the final week or the 7 year of great tribulations, it is marked by the revealing of the man of lawlessness – the Antichrist.

    So we have reached to the point of establishing a final week or 7 year period that is yet to come, we have also seen that even a great prophet as Daniel misinterpret scriptures and there was need for the Father to correct him. Isn’t this similar to Christ’s Olivet Discourse where Jesus knowing that the disciples would misinterpret the signs proceeded to give them clues as to what not to look for and what has been established for their time and what is to come in time to come. I pray that we humble ourselves to correction when we go wrong in our interpretation of scriptures and glorify God for His discipline in our lives. Until we post again, be blessed always.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hey Wesley,

      I don’t know if you read this, but this is one of my posts and it fits with what you wrote in your last post, so I thought that I would just post this in response since it has many of the things already listed that I would respond with. If you have already read it, then Just let me know.

      Daniel 9:24-26
      “Seventy ‘sevens’ are decreed for your people and your holy city to finish transgression, to put an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler , comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty -two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed One will be cut off and will have nothing. The people of the ruler who will come will destroy the city and the sanctuary. The end will come like a flood: War will continue until the end and desolations have been decreed.”

      First of all, as can be seen in the beginning of the verse, this decree of seventy ‘sevens’ is specified for “your people” and since the angel is addressing Daniel, the people that are in view are Israel. Notice also that this decree is for the purpose of putting an end to sin, to atone for wickedness, to bring in everlasting righteousness, to seal up vision and prophecy and to anoint the most holy. I think that we can all agree that at this present time, this decree has not yet been fulfilled, as there are still transgressions, sin and wickedness being committed as well as prophecies yet to be fulfill regarding Israel and the most holy has yet to be anointed.

      As stated, the beginning of the seventy ’sevens’ begins with the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem. This of course is in reference to the condition of Jerusalem, which lay in ruins after if was besieged by Babylon and they were carried off into exile. The decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem is given when Nehemiah, the cup bearer to king Artaxerxes of Persia, receives information that the wall of Jerusalem was broken down and the gates had been burned. Nehemiah then begins to pray to God that he would show favor to him that he might go and restore Jerusalem. After speaking to king Artaxerxes regarding this matter, it is stated that “It pleased the king to send me.”

      The time period of the seventy ‘sevens is divided up into three time frames, first, seven ‘sevens (49 years) for the restoring and rebuilding of Jerusalem and second, counting from the end of the seven ‘sevens’ until the end of sixty-two ‘sevens,’ (434 years) the Anointed One would be cut off, that is, Christ would be crucified. Together, these combined would complete sixty-nine ‘sevens, which when we add the 49 years to the 434 years it equals 483 years. So, if we count forward 483 years starting from 446 BC, which is the time period that scholars place the time of the decree, it brings us to 36 AD, which would put us in the time period of the our Lord’s crucifixion. So far, from the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One is cut off, this completes sixty-nine of the seventy ’sevens that were decreed. The third division is regarding the “Ruler who would come,” which fulfills the seventieth ‘seven’ or last seven year period.

      Daniel 9:27

      “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven’. In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation , until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

      At the completion of the sixty-nine ‘sevens’, the Anointed One was cut off (Christ crucified) and the church age began. At that time God paused the fulfillment of that last seven year period and began to build His church, which is still currently in progress. Once the building of the church has been completed and prior to the wrath of God, the church will be resurrected and caught up to meet the Lord in the air and taken back to the Father‘s house (John 14:1-3). At that time God will again click on His prophetic stopwatch and begin to fulfill that last seven year period, which begins with this ruler making a peace covenant with Israel for seven years. In the middle of that seven year period, as the verse states, he will put an end to the daily sacrifice and on a wing of the temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation. Jesus mentions this abomination of desolation in quoting Daniel when He says:

      Matthew 24:15-22

      “So when you see standing in the holy place ’the abomination that causes desolation,’ spoken of through the prophet Daniel — let the reader understand — then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let no one on the roof of his house go down to take anything out of the house. Let no one in the field go back to get his cloak. How dreadful it will be in those days for pregnant women and nursing mothers! Pray that your flight will not take place in winter or on the Sabbath. For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now — and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.”
      The definition of the Greek word “Bdelugma”, translated “Abomination” denotes an “object of disgust.” It is apparent that the setting up of this image is what causes the desolation of Jerusalem, which can be seen by the warning from the Lord in the verse above to flee to the mountains, to not take anything out of the house nor for anyone who is in the field to go back to get his cloak. The idea is that once this abomination is set up it causes the inhabitants of Jerusalem to flee, leaving it desolate. There are those who claim that the antichrist, who will set himself up in the temple is this abomination, but as we can see from the verses in Daniel and Matthew, this appears rather to be some type of image that is set up in the holy place within the yet future temple. The book of Revelation gives us some more insight as to just what this abomination is:

      Revelation 13:11-15 Then I saw another beast coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed. And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. Because of the signs he was given power to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants of the earth. He ordered them to set up an [image] in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived. He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed.

      This second beast which comes up out of the earth is later identified in Rev. 19:20 as the “false prophet.” He is the one responsible for causing the inhabitants of the earth to set up this image. It also states that he was able to give breath to the image of the beast as well as the ability to for it to speak and anyone who will not worship this image are to be killed. For thousands of years the Jews have been waiting for their Messiah, not recognizing that Jesus was that Messiah that was to come and because of that they are currently still waiting for their Messiah to appear. Consequently, not only are the Jews still waiting for their Messiah, but the Muslims are waiting for the twelfth Imam to appear and the Unification church is waiting for the third Adam to come and purify the earth. So, one can see what the outcome is going to be once this antichrist makes his appearance, as those mentioned along with any other religious groups waiting for some Messiah will be fulfilled when this man comes on the scene of history, only to deceive because they know not the word of God. When this man comes, he will make that seven year covenant of peace with Israel allowing them to rebuild their long awaited temple. In regards to this man, also described as “The beast coming up out of the sea” he receives a fatal head wound, which will be miraculously healed. This appears to be a mock resurrection, which will be used for the purpose of his claim to be God. To give further credibility to this first beast (antichrist), the second beast (false prophet) will be given Satanic power to perform counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders as is also mentioned in II Thessalonians:

      II Thessalonians 2:9-10

      The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing. They perish because they refuse to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe [the lie] and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.

      So as can be seen, because of the fatal head wound that is healed and the counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders that will be performed by the false prophet, the inhabitants of the earth will be deceived into believing that this first beast is God. As it is written:

      II Thessalonians 2:4

      He will oppose and will exalt himself over every thing that is called God or is worshiped, so that he sets himself up in God’s temple, proclaiming himself to be God.

      From the beginning of the seven years when that peace covenant is made, the Jews, along with the rest of the world will believe that this man is the Messiah, that is, up until that image is set up in the holy place. This will be the signal to the Jews to flee Jerusalem, which is the desolation caused by this abomination. There are some other characteristics revealed regarding this image in the passage previously mentioned in the book of Revelation, which states that the false prophet will be given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak. I have my own theory regarding this and that is that John is seeing a vision of future events, some that are relatable to us such as Lions, horses, mountains, trees, chariots, the sea, etc., but here when he states that the false prophet was given power to give breath to the image and to cause it to be able to speak, I think that this may have to do with technology of our time, which John has nothing to relate to except in basic terms. The image of the beast is closely related to the mark of the beast, which the inhabitants of the earth (all whose names have not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world) will receive. In regards to that mark it is written:

      Revelation 13:16-17

      He also forced everyone; small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of his name.

      The mark will be similar to the technology that is currently being used with the use of debit cards. Purchases are made, the card is swiped and the amount is immediately deducted from the purchasers bank account. The mark will perform the same function, but as it is written, the mark will be implanted subdermally under the skin of the right hand or forehead, but will be a miniature version of the debit card, most likely a computer chip of some kind that will allow debiting of a purchasers account, which said devices are currently already being tested. That being said, what if this image is actually a computer that will control the financial world with this mark and the outside container of this computer has been molded into the image of the beast, that antichrist? What if this computer system has voice protocol? If John, in his vision was to hear this computer speak, would he not attribute life to it? Remember, John is seeing the future, even beyond where we are now and therefore, he would not be able to relate to us that this is a computer system, which controls the mark of the beast and that it was speaking because of voice protocol programs. The best that John would be able to do is to relate it as an image and that he heard it speak and thereby attributes life to it. This of course is spiritual speculation on my part, but not out of the range of possibility.

      Yours in Christ – Don

  24. Greetings Don,

    Peace and God’s blessings to you in Jesus’ name, Amen. Your last post is quite interesting reading, you have articulated very well the seven years to come and accounted beautifully the other time periods. I have a notion on what the “resurrected beast” is and would state it when I get to chapter 13. For the time being, let’s look at chapter 6 of revelations.

    Rev 6:1-2
    6 And I saw when the Lamb broke one of the seven seals, and I heard one of the four living creatures saying as with a voice of thunder, “Come.” 2 And I looked, and behold, a white horse, and he who sat on it had a bow; and a crown was given to him; and he went out conquering, and to conquer.
    This is an early trib event, and what we would see happening is essentially something happening in heaven and the resulting action on earth. The thunderous voice is calling out to the horse and rider, the white horse is evidence of royal authority as only someone who is sovereign was allowed to own a white horse. It can be compared with a presidential limo. A crown was given to him, this crown is earned (stefanos) and not a crown of inheritance (diadem). The rider is given a bow but no arrows, I believe you also made that observation earlier Don.

    What then is the significance of this? We must first identify who the rider is. For info on his identity we go to 2 Thess 2:3-11
    3 Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God. 5 Do you not remember that while I was still with you, I was telling you these things? 6 And you know what restrains him now, so that in his time he may be revealed. 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only he who now restrains will do so until he is taken out of the way. 8 And then that lawless one will be revealed whom the Lord will slay with the breath of His mouth and bring to an end by the appearance of His coming; 9 that is, the one whose coming is in accord with the activity of Satan, with all power and signs and false wonders, 10 and with all the deception of wickedness for those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth so as to be saved.

    Many have thought that this was an angel of God but in fact it is the Antichrist, there must be certain events taking place in order for the Antichrist to come to power, God must permit these things and he starts with the removal of the Holy Spirit which directly results in the rapture. He is without arrows because it is not God’s will at this time that he has authority to wage war on the tribulation saints. We must also bear in mind that the world would be reduced to 10 kingdoms with 10 rulers, it is reasonable to deduce this because it would be easier to rule over 10 kings rather than over 200 earthly rulers.

    What does the term Antichrist mean? Many think that he is against Christ, he objects to what Christ is and stands for. On the contrary he would appear to be for Christ and supports all that Christ does but he would proclaim himself to be Christ!!! Dan 11:36-39, 36 “Then the king will do as he pleases, and he will exalt and magnify himself above every god, and will speak monstrous things against the God of gods; and he will prosper until the indignation is finished, for that which is decreed will be done. 37 “And he will show no regard for the gods of his fathers or for the desire of women, nor will he show regard for any other god; for he will magnify himself above them all. 38 “But instead he will honor a god of fortresses, a god whom his fathers did not know; he will honor him with gold, silver, costly stones, and treasures. 39 “And he will take action against the strongest of fortresses with the help of a foreign god; he will give great honor to those who acknowledge him, and he will cause them to rule over the many, and will parcel out land for a price.

    Some also believe that his hate for women reckons him to be a homosexual, on the contrary he would not be married principally for his imitation of Christ who was not Himself wedded. That is not to say that the Antichrist is not sexually active with women.

    I look forward to your thoughts on this post. May God continue to bless us through the indwelling of the Holy Spirit at the will of our blessed Saviour Christ Jesus.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hello again Wesley,

      I see from the wording of the verses, that you are using the “New American Standard Bible,” which I believe is a good translation. If you would like to check out a good tool where you can look at multiple translations at the same time parallel, then go to the following site: http://biblos.com/. I like using it just to compare to the other translations.

      It is good to see that God has also revealed to you that the white horse of the first seal is representing the man of lawlessness, as some would infer that becasue Jesus comes down from heaven on a white horse in Rev.19, that this rider on this white horse must be Christ as well, which is false thinking. At first glance, it should be apparent that this rider on the white horse of the first seal is not Christ, for it would make no sense in the chronological order of events, as Jesus does not return to the earth at the beginning of the seven year period, that is, to set up his kingdom. On the other hand, we do know that the this man of lawlessness makes his debut and in fact initiates that last seven year period by making that seven year peace covenant. Even in my bible, in the margin across from this first seal/white horse, it has “Christ Victor,” which I scratched out.

      In regards to the meaning of the word “Antichrist,” it is used in two ways, “in opposition to Christ” and “Instead of Christ.” Both seem to fit since, in regards to opposing him just as you wrote above:

      ” Let no one in any way deceive you, for it will not come unless the apostasy comes first, and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the son of destruction, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above every so-called god or object of worship, so that he takes his seat in the temple of God, displaying himself as being God.

      And at the same time, he will be proclaiming to be the Christ as seen below:

      “At that time if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here it the Christ!’ or, ‘There he is!’ do no believe it. For fasle Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and mriacles to deceive eve the elect — if that were possible.”

      So, we see that he opposes the true God and Christ, but will also be proclaiming to be Christ.

      What also points to this rider on the white horse being the man of lawlessness is that, it is stated that he rides out as a conquerer bent on conquest, which I believe is in reference to the 3 1/2 years that he is given authority to make war and to conquer the saints found in Daniel and Revelation.

      “He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.” (Dan.7:25)

      and

      “The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.” (Rev.13:5-7)

      Regarding what you wrote: Some also believe that his hate for women reckons him to be a homosexual, on the contrary he would not be married principally for his imitation of Christ who was not Himself wedded. That is not to say that the Antichrist is not sexually active with women.

      Whether he will be a homosexual or not, I do know, but if he was, he sure would have the vote of many on earth. Those who approve of this life style would welcome him with open arms. He would be their hero! In regards to this issue, what we are seeing today, is exactly what Jesus prophecied about saying, that the last days would become like the days of Sodom and Gomorra. In August of 2009 we saw the Evangelical Lutheran church of America (ELCA), vote to allow those who practice same-sex to be in positions of authority such as pastors, teachers, preachers, etc. They think that they are acting in love by allowing them to take those positions, but what the church has done is approve of sexual immorality. Those that pratice this I believe shoud be allowed to come into the church to hear the word of God for the purpose of believing in Christ and repenting just like anyone else who comes to Christ. But what they have done is to justify their sin of sexual immorality and they want to bring it with them and continue in it. So now, we have those in the church who practice same sex and are teaching the word of God. And now that they are in, you know what is coming next and that is, the teaching within the church that same sex pratice is ok and exceptible by God, because God loves everyone is their motto. Yeah well, God also requires a repentent heart, not justification of sin. Basically, they are bring their sin with them because they want to continue in it instead of turning from it and that is the problem. Jesus didn’t die for our sins so that we could continue in them! We are to be transformed into his image as we go from faith to faith throughout our lives and not to sow to the flesh! I tell you, they could get the entire world to approve of this practice, but when they stand before God, they will not get by him with this. See what you did, you got me started on this same sex thing. Don’t get me wrong, they have the opportunity to repent and receive Christ just like everyone else, but let it be a warning to them. They have the freedom to live life the way that they want to, but according to God’s word, those who live like this and approve of it will not inherit the kingdom of God, as God’s word makes that perfectly clear. Now back to the subject of the seals.

      So, we agree that the first seal/white horse is that man of lawlessness and now regarding the second seal:

      “When the Lamb opened the second seal, I heared the second living creature say, “Come!” Then another horse came out, a fiery red one. Its rider was given power to take peace from the earth and to make men slay each other. To him was given a large sword.”

      The fact that this rider and horse are given power to take peace from the earth of course speaks of world-wide war. Though we have wars currently going on throughout the earth, I believe that when this seal is broken, most of the world will be at war. At this time we still see peace between most of the nations, except Palistine who are the descendants of Ismael the “wild ass man”who continue to fight with Israel and the rest of the world. When this seal is broken, war will break out between all nations and possibly with people in general.

      Yours in Christ – Don

  25. Greetings Don,

    Just a short note to extend to you and yours a blessed New Year 2010. May you be ever vigilant as you await the Lord’s call to His church and may His divine countenance be the only source of strength and guidance in your life.

    In grace,

    Wesley
    Your brother in Christ.

    Will continue our discussion on Saturday God Willing….

  26. Greetings and Happy New Year Don,

    In our previous Revelations posts we were looking at the opening of the seals and that brought the character of the Antichrist into view. Over the years there have been many false claims of this or that person being the Antichrist and today President Obama heads the list of the most likely candidate with the Pope being a close second. It is interesting that many of the people making these sensationalist claims stand in front of a pulpit and preach to their congregations about post trib rapture as well. It is amazing that people continue to let themselves be guided by such heresy and would not get off their lazy butts and pick up the bible on their own and pray for God to open their eyes to His truths. They much rather sit there every Saturday or Sunday morn and have someone tell them their version of the truth. If anyone wonders how would the Antichrist fool so many, just walk into one the many prosperity ministries we have today. This would also answer the question about Christ’s rejection of those professing to heal the sick, cast out demons etc in His name. Christ said that He does not know them!

    I am not off topic here but rather taking an brazened look at what is to come and how God’s word is infallible. Even as time draws closer for the rapture of the church there is an overwhelming apostasy of the church, more and more people are becoming disenchanted with biblical truths and clinging to a gospel that satisfies their inner earthly desires for power and prosperity. Should this gospel theme change at any point and the pulpit pastor preaches salvation I would wager his congregation would be severely reduced.

    Rev 6:3-4, 3 And when He broke the second seal, I heard the second living creature saying, “Come.” 4 And another, a red horse, went out; and to him who sat on it, it was granted to take peace from the earth, and that men should slay one another; and a great sword was given to him.

    The Antichrist’s conquest begins in peace, but soon he exchanges the empty bow for a sword. The color red is often associated with terror and death: the red dragon Rev 12:3, 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. The red beast, Rev 17:3, 3 And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness; and I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast, full of blasphemous names, having seven heads and ten horns. It is a picture of wanton bloodshed. War has been a part of man’s experience since Cain killed Abel, so this image would speak to believers in every age, reminding them that God is ultimately in control, even though He is not responsible for the lawless deeds of men and nations.

    Rev 6:5-6, 5 And when He broke the third seal, I heard the third living creature saying, “Come.” And I looked, and behold, a black horse; and he who sat on it had a pair of scales in his hand. 6 And I heard as it were a voice in the center of the four living creatures saying, “A quart of wheat for a denarius, and three quarts of barley for a denarius; and do not harm the oil and the wine.”

    The color black is often connected with famine, Jer 14:1-2, 14 That which came as the word of the Lord to Jeremiah in regard to the drought: 2 “Judah mourns, And her gates languish;They sit on the ground in mourning, And the cry of Jerusalem has ascended.
    Lam 5:10, 10 Our skin has become as hot as an oven, Because of the burning heat of famine. Famine and war go together. A shortage of food will always drive up prices and force the government to ration what is available. “To eat bread by weight” is a Jewish phrase indicating that food is scarce, Lev 26:26, 26 ‘When I break your staff of bread, ten women will bake your bread in one oven, and they will bring back your bread in rationed amounts, so that you will eat and not be satisfied. A penny (denarius) a day was a standard wage for laborers, Matt 20:2, 2 “And when he had agreed with the laborers for a denarius for the day, he sent them into his vineyard. But, of course, it had much greater buying power than the common penny does today. A “measure” of wheat was about two pints, sufficient for the daily needs of one person. Ordinarily, a person could buy eight to twelve measures for a penny, and much more of barley, which was the cheaper grain.

    Rev 6:7-8, 7 And when He broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come.” 8 And I looked, and behold, an ashen horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.

    Some claim that John saw two persons, the fact is that one is person and the other is a place. Death riding a pale horse and hades (where the dead await is split in two, hell and Abraham’s bosom, only the unsaved dwell in that place called hell today) following him. Christ has the keys of death and hades Rev 1:18, 18 and the living One; and I was dead, and behold, I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of death and of Hades. And both will one day be cast into hell, Rev 20:14, 14 And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. Death claims the body while hades claims the soul of the dead, if unsaved, Rev 20:13, 13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. John saw the enemy going forth to claim his prey, armed with weapons of the sword, hunger, pestilence (death), and wild beasts. In ancient times, hunger, pestilence, and the ravages of beasts would be expected to accompany war. Jer 15:2, 2 “And it shall be that when they say to you, ‘Where should we go?’ then you are to tell them, ‘Thus says the Lord: “Those destined for death, to death; And those destined for the sword, to the sword; And those destined for famine, to famine; And those destined for captivity, to captivity.”‘ Jer 24:10, 10 ‘And I will send the sword, the famine, and the pestilence upon them until they are destroyed from the land which I gave to them and their forefathers.'” Ezek 14:21, 21 For thus says the Lord God, “How much more when I send My four severe judgments against Jerusalem: sword, famine, wild beasts, and plague to cut off man and beast from it!

    I pray that the word reaches you in God’s grace and only the truth in accordance with His will be revealed in Jesus’ name. Amen.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hi Wesley,

      Your Wrote: “It is amazing that people continue to let themselves be guided by such heresy and would not get off their lazy butts and pick up the bible on their own and pray for God to open their eyes to His truths. They much rather sit there every Saturday or Sunday morn and have someone tell them their version of the truth”

      Yes, unfortunately you are correct and this is a big problem in that, people today are the opposite of the Bereans. Instead of searching the Scriptures so that they can know the word of God for themselves, they depend on someone to tell them what God’s word says. This is the danger especially with the RCC, where the they have determined and put into their dogma that the pope is infallible and that his word carries as much weight as the holy Scriptures. We who are in Chirst should all be striving to be authorities on the word of God. How can we say that we know him if we don’t read his word? It would be very easy to be deceived by this antichrist who is coming. In fact it is written regarding him.

      “For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect — if that were possible.”

      These signs, miracles and wonders (counterfeit) that the false prophet is going to perform will be so convincing that it would even deceive God’s chosen if that was possible, but the fact is that he has warned us about this very thing in his word ahead of time. He also mentions that his coming will be in the same way as when ligtning that shines from the east and is seen also in the west. In other words, it will be a main event that no one will miss, not even those in Hades. Obviously, there will be many who will be deceived by not only those counterfeit miracles, but it is also written that God will send them a strong delusion that they should believe the lie, which will be the beast proclaiming himself to be God, with counterfeit miracles, a fatal head wound and mock resurrection to back it up. Even now, we see people being deceived by others who have and are proclaiming to be the messiah with the like of Jim Jones, David Karesh and most recently Wayne Bent, aka Michael Travesser. If those who follow these men would just read God’s warnings about false christs and how Jesus proclaimed that he was going to return, they would not be deceived by these people. If they say to you, “He’s out in the desert, don’t go look.” If the say to you “He’s in the inner room,” don’t believe them. Thank God for the truth of his word!

      You Wrote: “Rev 6:7-8, 7 And when He broke the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth living creature saying, “Come.” 8 And I looked, and behold, a white horse; and he who sat on it had the name Death; and Hades was following with him. And authority was given to them over a fourth of the earth, to kill with sword and with famine and with pestilence and by the wild beasts of the earth.”

      There are a couple of things that I would add to this. First, this fourth seal/white horse appears to be the results of the first three seals/horses.

      Second, this is one of the only two places listed among the seven seals, trumpets and bowls where a percentage is given as to how many fatalities there will be as a result of God’s wrath. The other percentage of fatalities is mentioned in the 6th trumpet, which is a third of the earth’s population. So with the fourth seal being a fourth killed and the 6th trumpet being a third, that brings the listed total to a 50% of the earth’s population killed. But, as stated in earlier posts, this percentage is much higher, because what most writers fail to take into consideration are the undisclosed amount of fatalities resulting from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd trumpets, as well as whatever fatalities will result from the bowl judgments. One could probably add another billion and a half to that 3 billion that will have already been killed.

      And thirdly, notice that Hades is following close behind death, which would infer that this fourth of the earth’s population who die as a result from those four seals are unbelievers and not saints, since saints do not go into Hades after they die. As you mentioned above, prior to Christ being crucified, the faithful who died went to a seperate place of paradise, which was across from Hades divided by a great chasm, where Lazarus and Father Abraham were. Hades, erroneously translated “Hell,” is a temporary place of torment in flame for the lost dead, who will be resurrected out at the end of the millennium, only to stand before God at the great white throne judgment and then to be cast into the lake of fire.

      The 5th seal is what is called a “parenthetic pause,” as it does not promote nor advance the wrath of God, but is a break in the action.

      “When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they maintained. They called out in a loud voice, ‘How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?’ Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.”

      First of all, this is another one of those good proofs to present to those who claim that there is no consciousness after death, as we are seeing the souls of those had been killed and are who under the altar in heaven, but have not yet been resurrected. I would be anxious to see who you would identify this group as being. I have had the idea that this group are either old testament saints who have been waiting to be avenged or the saints that were killed during the early part of the tribulation period, which may be linked to following regarding “The Woman” who rides the beast.

      “In her was found the blood of prophets and of the saints, and of all who have been killed on the earth.”

      They are told to wait until “their fellow servants and brothers who were to be killed as they had been was completed.”
      Those fellow servants and brothers that they are to wait for, are those who are mentioned who come out of the great tribulation period that no man could count in Rev.7:9-17. Also show being resurrected in Rev.20:4.

      Well, I look forward to your next response.

      Yours in Christ – Don

  27. Greetings Don,

    Well we’re progressing well, thanks be to God through Christ Jesus for this.

    Rev 6:9-11, 9 And when He broke the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God, and because of the testimony which they had maintained; 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also.

    You indicated, ‘First of all, this is another one of those good proofs to present to those who claim that there is no consciousness after death, as we are seeing the souls of those had been killed and are who under the altar in heaven, but have not yet been resurrected. I would be anxious to see who you would identify this group as being. I have had the idea that this group are either old testament saints who have been waiting to be avenged or the saints that were killed during the early part of the tribulation period, which may be linked to following regarding “The Woman” who rides the beast.’

    The clues as to who this group is in the verse itself; firstly the term “souls” is used, ‘I saw underneath the altar the souls’, this is a clear indication that they are un-resurrected people in soul form that come after the rapture. They are not old testament saints, (who are also in soul form) because their testimonies are of Christ, old testament saints are never associated as being crucified because of Christ.The only physical form that exist is the church, this has to do with the Jewish wedding ceremony and would last for 7 years. It is therefore unquestionably the tribulation saints who died after the rapture because of their testimony of Christ.

    Rev 6:12-17, 12 And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 And the sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come; and who is able to stand?”

    The martyrs cried, “Avenge us!” but the unbelievers on earth will cry, “Hide us!” The opening of the sixth seal will produce worldwide turmoil and calamities, including the 1st of 3 great earthquakes:
    Rev 6:12, 12 And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood
    Rev 11:13, 13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; and seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.
    Rev 16:18, 18 And there were flashes of lightning and sounds and peals of thunder; and there was a great earthquake, such as there had not been since man came to be upon the earth, so great an earthquake was it, and so mighty.

    All of nature will be affected: the sun, moon, and stars, as well as the heavens, the mountains, and the islands. This scene can be compared with:
    Joel 2:30-31, 30 “And I will display wonders in the sky and on the earth, Blood, fire, and columns of smoke. 31 “The sun will be turned into darkness, And the moon into blood, Before the great and awesome day of the Lord comes.
    Joel 3:15, 15 The sun and moon grow dark, And the stars lose their brightness.
    Isa 13:9-10, 9 Behold, the day of the Lord is coming, Cruel, with fury and burning anger, To make the land a
    desolation; And He will exterminate its sinners from it. 10 For the stars of heaven and their constellations Will not flash forth their light; The sun will be dark when it rises, And the moon will not shed its light.
    Isa 34:2-4, 2 For the Lord’s indignation is against all the nations, And His wrath against all their armies; He has utterly destroyed them, He has given them over to slaughter. 3 So their slain will be thrown out, And their corpses will give off their stench, And the mountains will be drenched with their blood. 4 And all the host of heaven will wear away, And the sky will be rolled up like a scroll; All their hosts will also wither away As a leaf withers from the vine, Or as one withers from the fig tree.

    Even though John wrote using symbolic language, these verses describe a scene that would bring untold fear even to the bravest person. People will try to hide from the face of God and from the face of the Lamb! Imagine wanting to hide from a lamb! Soon the most valuable piece of real estate would be a hole in the ground. We will see more of “the wrath of God” as we progress through Revelation (Rev 11:18; 14:10; 16:19; 19:15). We will also encounter the wrath of Satan (Rev 12:17) and the wrath of the nations as they oppose God (Rev 11:18). If men and women will not surrender to the love of God, and be changed by the grace of God, then there is no way for them to escape the wrath of God. Rank and wealth will not deliver anyone in that terrible day. John’s list included kings, great men, commanders, and slaves, the rich and the poor. “Who shall be able to stand?” In addition, the people mentioned here are unrepentant, they refuse to submit to God’s will. They would rather hide from God in fear just like Adam and Eve, rather than run to Him in faith. They are proof that judgment by itself does not change the human heart. Not only will men seek to hide from God, but they will blaspheme Him as well:
    Rev 16:11, 11 and they blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores; and they did not repent of their deeds.
    Rev 16:19, 19 And the great city was split into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell. And Babylon the great was remembered before God, to give her the cup of the wine of His fierce wrath.
    Rev 16:21, 21 And huge hailstones, about one hundred pounds each, came down from heaven upon men; and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail, because its plague was extremely severe.

    The question then is there any hope for believers during this terrible time of judgment? And what about God’s chosen people, the Jews, who made a covenant with the Antichrist? Certainly people will trust the Lord even after the church is taken to heaven, but how will they manage? We turn to Rev 7 for some of the answers in my next post. Looking forward to your insight on this chapter (6) as we know the 7th seal is in fact the beginning of the trumpet judgments. As always all glory be to our God through our saviour Christ Jesus.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hi Wesley,

      Regarding your response: “The clues as to who this group is in the verse itself; firstly the term “souls” is used, ‘I saw underneath the altar the souls’, this is a clear indication that they are un-resurrected people in soul form that come after the rapture”

      Yes, the fact that they are “souls” suggests that they are not yet resurrected as I said in the same verse when I said:

      “as we are seeing the souls of those had been killed and are under the altar in heaven, but have not yet been resurrected.”

      so, we know that they are those who were killed and have not yet been resurrected. Just as you do, I also lean towards them being those who will be killed early on during the first 3 1/2 years of the seven. However, I don’t understand what you mean by the following: “old testament saints are never associated as being crucified because of Christ,” as these souls under the altar are not mentioned as being crucified for Christ, but that they will be slain and it does not mention that it was because of Christ, but because of the word of God and the testimony they maintained, just to be accurate:

      Rev 6:12-17, 12 And I looked when He broke the sixth seal, and there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth made of hair, and the whole moon became like blood; 13 and the stars of the sky fell to the earth, as a fig tree casts its unripe figs when shaken by a great wind. 14 And the sky was split apart like a scroll when it is rolled up; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places. 15 And the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come; and who is able to stand?”

      Regarding the mention of the stars falling to the earth, we know that these are not the literal stars such our sun, because even if our moon, which is not anywhere near the size of a star, if it were to hit or even get close to the earth, we would be destroyed, much less an actual star. When they mention the stars falling to the earth, I believe that they are speaking of meteorites or asteroids hitting the earth’s atmosphere, as they would not no enough to call them by the name of meteorites or asteroids, as these are future, scientific names, but to them they would be stars.

      Regarding the following:

      “And the kings of the earth and the great men and the commanders and the rich and the strong and every slave and free man, hid themselves in the caves and among the rocks of the mountains; 16 and they said to the mountains and to the rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the presence of Him who sits on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb; 17 for the great day of their wrath has come; and who is able to stand?”

      I have always wondered about this verse. It appears that when John says “the sky rolls up like a scroll” that the people of the earth will be able to see inside heaven, as though when the sky rolls up, that dimention between our realm and the heavenly realm will opened, like a window and the people of the earth will see God sitting on his throne and Christ, which is why they are so afraid and want the rocks to fall on them, so that they will no longer be in his presense. I don’t know why they would want that though, because if the rocks do fall on them and kill them, the next stop is Hades!

      You wrote: “The question then, is there any hope for believers during this terrible time of judgment?”

      As I’m sure that you will agree, there is hope for these great tribualtion saints in that, though the majority will be beheaded, they will be resurrected at Christs return to set up his millennial kingdom (Rev.20:4). These are those of whom he spoke when he said the following:

      “They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.”

      and

      “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.”

      So, those days will be shortened so that some of the great tribulaiton saints will be left alive in their mortal bodies in order to enter into the millennium to repopulate the earth. John also sees a vision of them prior to their resurrection in Rev.7:9-17 and describes them as a “multitude that no man could count.” Regarding the Jews who will make a covenant with the antichrist, remember that, in the middle of the seven, the antichrist wil cause the daily sacrifice to cease and he will set up that abomination in the holy place, which at that time will reveal to the Jews that, he is not their true messiah, where at that point, it will cause the desolation of Jerusalem. These Israelites (the woman) are given two great wings of an eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, here she is taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpents reach. I’m guessing that, the setting up of the abomination happens prior to them receiving his mark, else how could they be saved if they receive it? Not only that, but if they were to receive the mark prior to the abomination of desolation being set up, why would God bother caring for them for 3 1/2 years, seeing that he is very adament about anyone who receives that mark. The abomination of desolation being set up is the starting point of the antichrist proclaiming himselve to be God and requiring worship, but the woman (Israel) gets out of Jerusalem before that all starts.

      As always, I will watch for your next post.

      Yours in Chirst – Don

  28. Allo Don,

    Taking up from your comments as quoted, “However, I don’t understand what you mean by the following: “old testament saints are never associated as being crucified because of Christ,” as these souls under the altar are not mentioned as being crucified for Christ, but that they will be slain and it does not mention that it was because of Christ, but because of the word of God and the testimony they maintained, just to be accurate:”

    Take a look at the continuance of the verse, Rev 6:10-11, 10 and they cried out with a loud voice, saying, “How long, O Lord, holy and true, wilt Thou refrain from judging and avenging our blood on those who dwell on the earth?” 11 And there was given to each of them a white robe; and they were told that they should rest for a little while longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren who were to be killed even as they had been, should be completed also.

    ‘until the number of THEIR FELLOW SERVANTS and THEIR BRETHREN WHO WERE TO BE KILLED EVEN AS THEY HAD BEEN’. This would account for the manner of death that the tribulation saints faced. They did not die of natural causes, they were slain and are effectively crying out for God to avenge them.

    Old testament saints who died prior to Christ’s ministry on earth prophesied of the coming Messiah (Old Testament Conceals) while the Gospel writers spoke of the Messiah’s ministry, death and ascension (New Testament Reveals), the souls of the departed old testament saints were taken away by Christ after He became the first fruit of resurrection, they did not receive their new bodies and are not part of the church or bride of Christ. The church are the members of the body that testifies about the Messiah’s work on the cross for the redemption of sins and His resurrection to heaven. The old testament saints did not testify about these things and could not be slain because of Christ, only the raptured saints testified and were slain for these reasons; these are the word of God (logos) and the testimony they maintained that Christ was the Messiah. Hope this clears up any concerns that you had.

    Rev 7:1-8
    7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind should blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. 2 And I saw another angel ascending from the rising of the sun, having the seal of the living God; and he cried out with a loud voice to the four angels to whom it was granted to harm the earth and the sea, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel: 5 from the tribe of Judah, twelve thousand were sealed, from the tribe of Reuben twelve thousand, from the tribe of Gad twelve thousand, 6 from the tribe of Asher twelve thousand, from the tribe of Naphtali twelve thousand, from the tribe of Manasseh twelve thousand, 7 from the tribe of Simeon twelve thousand, from the tribe of Levi twelve thousand, from the tribe of Issachar twelve thousand, 8 from the tribe of Zebulun twelve thousand, from the tribe of Joseph twelve thousand, from the tribe of Benjamin, twelve thousand were sealed.

    The mysteries of Revelations are revealed in the other 65 books of the Bible, the writer, John, wrote the book and more than likely would have presumed that the reader would be knowledgeable of other gospels and scriptures. Chapter 7 of Revelations is a classic example of the clues to understanding existing somewhere else in the Bible, in this case in Matthew.

    Matt 24:14
    14 “And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached in the whole world for a witness to all the nations, and then the end shall come.

    Before I build on this verse let’s look at Rev 7 in a little more detail.
    7 After this I saw four angels standing at the four corners of the earth, holding back the four winds of the earth, so that no wind should blow on the earth or on the sea or on any tree. What happens if there is no wind? Any good meteorologist would tell you that there would be no rain. If there is no rain then there would be no water to irrigate the farms and crops, the result is famine! Could this be the catalyst for an earlier seal judgment? Maybe, or maybe this can be a unique occurrence!

    Next is the sealing of the famed 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. The bible does not explicitly tell us that those chosen for service or sealed are from the nation of Israel itself. It therefore stands to reason that they are Jews & more than likely living in other countries. This is an ideal calling for they would be familiar with the language and culture of their native countries and armed with a full knowledge of the Old and New Testaments. They would be ideal for evangelizing a wide spectrum of peoples of all Gentile nations. Rev 7:9-10, 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands.

    Before I close for today, let’s take a look at your post regarding,”I have always wondered about this verse. It appears that when John says “the sky rolls up like a scroll” that the people of the earth will be able to see inside heaven, as though when the sky rolls up, that dimention between our realm and the heavenly realm will opened, like a window and the people of the earth will see God sitting on his throne and Christ, which is why they are so afraid and want the rocks to fall on them, so that they will no longer be in his presense. I don’t know why they would want that though, because if the rocks do fall on them and kill them, the next stop is Hades!”

    I believe it is symbolic and we are not meant to look for physical occurrence. The departing of the heavens, Rev 6:14: “And the heaven departed as a scroll. The heavens are depicted as being spread out, and their ceasing is indicated by the idea that they might be rolled up, then disappear. See Isa 34:4. This, too, is a symbol, and we are not to suppose that it will literally occur. Indeed it never can literally occur; and we are not, therefore, to look for the fulfillment of this in any physical fact that would correspond with what is said here.

    Looking forward to your next post and comments.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hi Wesley,

      Yes, I am in agreement with you that these souls under the altar are most likely those who will be killed during the early part of the tribulation period. The reason that I brought it up was because, you compared the old testament saints with those saints who are killed during the tribulation period and used the word “Crucified” and so I was just noting that, those killed during the tribulation period are not mentioned as being crucified, but beheaded in Rev.20:4. That is, those mentioned as coming out of the great tribulation are said to have been beheaded and it is said that those under the altar are to be killed in the same manner as them.

      In regards to your following post:

      “I believe it is symbolic and we are not meant to look for physical occurrence. The departing of the heavens, Rev 6:14: “And the heaven departed as a scroll. The heavens are depicted as being spread out, and their ceasing is indicated by the idea that they might be rolled up, then disappear. See Isa 34:4. This, too, is a symbol, and we are not to suppose that it will literally occur. Indeed it never can literally occur; and we are not, therefore, to look for the fulfillment of this in any physical fact that would correspond with what is said here.

      I do believe that this a literal event as there is nothing in the context to make us believe otherwise. Another reason for believing in a literal interpretation is that Isa.34:4 also states this event in the same exact wording and that is, the sky being rolled up like a scroll.

      “All the stars of the heavens will be disolved and the sky rolled up like a scroll; all the starry host will fall like withered leaves from the vine, like shriveled figs from the fig tree.”

      Looking at the 6th seal, I believe that since the events of the earthquake, sun, moon and stars are literal events, I believe that the sky rolling up like a scroll is also to be taken literally because, the events of the sun, moon, stars and the sky rolling up like a scroll are the reason why the kings, princes, generals, the rich, the mighty, and every slave and every free man will be hiding in caves and among the rocks and calling to the rocks to fall on them to hide them from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb. Since Isaiah described it in the same way, I believe this to be taken literally. It would not make sense to believe that the events of the earthquake, sun, moon and stars were literal and then to take a symbolic view of the sky rolling up like a scroll. I believe that when John sees the sky rolling up like a scroll, he is literally seeing that which is normally vailed from the human eyes and at that point when the vail is removed, people will be able to see God in heaven, which makes sense in regards to the resulting fear. In fact, John spoke of something similar when in Rev.4:1 when he said that there was a door standing open in heaven, just before he is caught up.

      There are some other issues that I have kept in my spiritual cupboard, if you will, in regards to the events of the 6th seal and 7th Bowl and that is, there seem to be some simularities between them namely, in the 6th Seal it is mentioned that there is a great earthquake, while in the 7th Bowl, there is a severe earthquake, in fact, the worst to ever happen since men have been on the earth. The 6th Seal says that every mountain and island was removed from its place, where at the 7th Bowl it is said that “every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.” Obviously, these events regarding the mountains and islands are the results of the earthquakes. These characteristics seem to be very similar, but I have always just kept this in mind. There are some who believe that the seals, trumpets and bowls take place parallel to each other, as though they were overlapping. personally, I have always believed that the seals, trumpets and bowls are all sequential events, that is, the 1st seal is followed by the 2nd seal, followed by the third and so on and then once the 7th seal is opened, it leads sequentially in to the trumpets, which then follow in succession and the same for the seven bowls, with Jesus returning sometime shortly after the 7th Bowl judgment.

      You wrote: “Next is the sealing of the famed 144,000 from the twelve tribes of Israel. The bible does not explicitly tell us that those chosen for service or sealed are from the nation of Israel itself. It therefore stands to reason that they are Jews & more than likely living in other countries. This is an ideal calling for they would be familiar with the language and culture of their native countries and armed with a full knowledge of the Old and New Testaments.”

      What you are saying could very well be, that they are Jews that are sealed being in different countries, but then I would have to consider the prophecy regarding God returning all of the Jews back to Jerusalem from all the countries where he had scattered them. Just a thought. Until next time….

      Yours in Christ – Don

    • Morning Wesly!

      By the way, you need to put a picture up for your posts.

  29. Hello Don,

    There are indeed similarities in the seal, trumpet and bowl judgments and furthermore they can be compared with the plagues of Egypt regarding the Exodus. I don’t believe that the 21 judgments would take place evenly, but the seal & trumpet judgments will happen in relatively quick succession in the first half of tribulation and may occur simultaneously in some cases leading up to a crucial period; mid-tribulation. And there will a cessation for a time before the bowl judgments.

    I can see your point regarding the Jews being gathered back to Israel, the way I see it is that these 144,000 would be evangelizing mostly gentiles during their brief ministry on earth before they are martyred. Rev 7:9, 9 After these things I looked, and behold, a great multitude, which no one could count, from every nation and all tribes and peoples and tongues, standing before the throne and before the Lamb, clothed in white robes, and palm branches were in their hands. It is commonly accepted that where more than one nation is mentioned it is in reference to the Gentiles.

    We were looking at chapter 7 I believe, and I know that we have looked at the sealing of the 144,000, but I want to take a small step back to the beginning of the chapter where it says, ‘After this’. I believe that this shows the events of chapter 7 were amidst the first 6 seal judgments, while the world was in turmoil as a result of the seal judgments the sealed 144,000 were bringing the gospel to the world and countless numbers would be saved. Rev 7:14-15,
    14 And I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

    Rev 7:14-17, 14 And I said to him, “My lord, you know.” And he said to me, “These are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. 15 “For this reason, they are before the throne of God; and they serve Him day and night in His temple; and He who sits on the throne shall spread His tabernacle over them. 16 “They shall hunger no more, neither thirst anymore; neither shall the sun beat down on them, nor any heat; 17 for the Lamb in the center of the throne shall be their shepherd, and shall guide them to springs of the water of life; and God shall wipe every tear from their eyes.”

    Compare these final 4 verses to Psalm 23 and tell me what you think. I think this is truly remarkable!!!

    Ps 23,The Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. 2 He makes me lie down in green pastures; He leads me beside quiet waters. 3 He restores my soul; He guides me in the paths of righteousness
    For His name’s sake. 4 Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of death, I fear no evil; for Thou art with me;Thy rod and Thy staff, they comfort me. 5 Thou dost prepare a table before me in the presence of my enemies;Thou hast anointed my head with oil; My cup overflows. 6 Surely goodness and loving- kindness will follow me all the days of my life, And I will dwell in the house of the Lord forever.

    Let’s take a look at chapter 8; Rev 8:1, 8 And when He broke the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven for about half an hour.
    When I look at this verse I am reminded that the world was under tremendous torment riddled with natural disasters and countless numbers of people were slain for their faith. Imagine a child dropping something heavy on his foot, there is about a 20 second silent then a very loud scream, isn’t that so? I believe that this similar to the silence in heaven, the heavy object being the seal judgments and a symbolic breath taken in and then come the trumpet judgments. What are your thoughts?

    Looking forward to your next post, may God continue to bless our study and sharing of His word and the Holy Spirit convicts us to correct where we may be wrong in our interpretations and explanations, In Jesus’ name. Amen.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    PS, Where are you from man? What do you do? Tell me something about yourself and your family.

    • Hi Wesley,

      Well, to answer your “PS” first, I moved from California to Arizona over 3 years ago. I was always going on motocycle rides through the US and I always liked the open spaces of the desert as well as the cacti, desert mountains and the heat of the desert and so, I finally moved out here. I have about 300 acres of desert wilderness starting about 15 feet from my patio, which is filled with lots of desert animals, such as coyote, Javalina, Roadrunners, snakes, scorpions, jack rabbits, etc, etc. I have worked in computer operations since 1983, monitoring differents systems, applications, data transfers, backups, networks, also interacting with our manufacturing plants located in the Philippines, Singapore and China just to name a few. I received Christ when I was 14 and from that time on there was a lot of the flesh waring against the spirit and the spirit waring against the flesh, but as God’s word says, no one who is born of God will continue to sin, because God’s seed remains in him; he cannot go on sinning, because he has been born of God. This is not a rebuke to stop sinning persay, but John is saying that the person who is truely born of God, though he wrestles with the flesh and at times the flesh has been in control, we cannot live comfortably in that state, because we are born of God and His seed remains in us. God finally made it possible for me to stand, sowing to the spirit and putting the flesh down and keeping it down. I suppose that is the difference between those who are in Christ and those who are not. The man in Christ grieves when he falls into the flesh and cannot remain in that state becasue he is born of God, but the unbeliever does not have a problem with this, as he only has the sinful nature within him, because he has not received Christ and therefore, there is no new creation in Christ to wage war against the flesh. I think that Paul described this condition very well in Romans 7 (the things I want to do, I don’t do, but the things I hate these things I keep on doing).

      In regards to your post, as far as the judgments are concerned, I do not believe that they will be carried out evenly either, but they will happen just as it is written, and that is, the judgments will come like “birth Pains.” The pains start off slow and far apart and then they get closer together and the pains become more intense as they go along. If we apply this to the judgments, then as God begins to pour out his wrath, they will start off and become more frequent and worse as they go along. This how Jesus and Paul both described the wrath of God (Mt.24:8; I Thes.5:3). Then, we have to take into consideration the middle part of the seven years known as the great tribulation, at which time several things will happen at that same time. First, you will have the false prophet setting up that abomination in the holy place (Rev.13:14-15), which causes the desolation of Jerusalem (Dan.9:27; Mt.24:15; Rev.12:14), you have the antichrist making war and conquering the saints for that 3 1/2 years leading up to Christs return (Dan.7:25; Rev.13:5-7), you have the mark of the beast becoming manditory and all the other forms of buying and selling becoming obsolete (Rev.13:16-17), you have that fallen angel, who is the counter-part of the beast who will come up out of the Abyss at the sounding of the 5th trumpet (Rev.9:11) and who will kill the two witnesses in Jerusalem (Rev.11:7) and you have Satan and his angels finally being thrown out of heaven and restricted to the earth so that they can no longer accuse the saints day and night (Rev.12:7-12). And while all of this is going on, God’s wrath will have already begun to be poured out at the beginning of the seven year period and continuing up until the Lord returns to set up his millennial kingdom on earth.

      In regards to the great tribulation saints, yes, I agree with you in that, since it is mentioned that they come from every nation, tribe, people and language, that they will be Gentiles, which means peoples or races. Also, I would like to point out the following regarding the great tribulation saints, as it is said of them:

      “Never again will they hunger, never again will they thrist. The sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat.”

      Regarding the above verse, since it is said that these saints come out of the great tribulation, it mentions that they shall never hunger and thirst again, which I believe is in relation to what happens during the seven years, especially the last 3 1/2 years. Remember the the 3rd Seal/Black horse is famine, which I am sure will continue to escalate through the entire seven years and therefore, the mentioning of the hunger and thirst. Even though they will be the saints of God during this time period, these judgments that are being poured out by God will still be affecting them as well, which is why we are supposed to be ready, anticipating Christs appearing in order to be “kept from” this time period because the plagues will involve the entire earth. Also, notice that it says that, the sun will not beat upon them nor any scorching heat. Again, since they will be on the earth during the time God is pouring out his wrath, they will be here to experience the fourth bowl judgment, which is poured out on the sun and scortches the people of the earth with fire and they are seared by the intense heat.

      In regards to the half hour of silence in heaven, that was a pretty colorful comparison with the child dropping something heavy on his foot with the delayed reaction. It was a good visual too, ha, ha! I also think of it as a brief break of what will have previously transpired on the earth with a fourth of the population being killed and this is a slight lull before the next volley of judgments begin. At this point, the angels are being given the trumpets to sound in preperation for the next set of seven judgments. The peals of thunder, rumblings, flashes of lightning and the earthquake seem to be a type of sign or announcement that the next set of judgments are coming.

      “The first angel sounded his trumpet, and there came hail and fire mixed with blood, and it was hurled down upon the earth . A third of the earth was burned up, a third of the trees were burned up, and all green grass was burned up.”

      First I would like to say that, I believe that all of the judgments are to be taken literally and not symbolic as some would claim. These represent the judgments of God that will be poured out upon the earth during the time know as the “day of the Lord,” which has two phases, the first phase, which actually initiates the day of the Lord is the resurrection and catching away, followed by the wrath of God. In regards to the hail and fire mixed with blood being thrown down upon the earth, this is obviously the cause of a third of the earth being burned up, but what is actually causing the fire, hail and blood, I do not know. I have read many theories, but there is nothing concrete about what these three represent. You would have to ask yourself the question about whether the blood is literal blood and if so, how is it mixed with the fire and hail. On the other hand, is it something that resembles blood that John is seeing? I don’t have a problem with fire and hail because, hail does come from the sky and volcanic embers can also be carried in the air. Or, it is possible that these three could all be done supernaturally by God. In any case, a third of the earth and trees are literally burned up and that being said, this trumpet along with the next two are always overlooked regarding the fatalities with those who write books on Revelation, that is, they don’t take trumpets 1,2 and 3 into consideration. You cannot have a third of the earth being burned up without having a great loss of life accompanying it, but since we have no percentages mentioned like the 4th Seal and the 6th Trumpet, one can only guestimate how many will die from this trumpet. Also, since a third of the trees will also be burned up, now you are talking about removing a third of the trees which provide renewed oxigen to the atmosphere, as well as the fruit trees and crops that will be burned up as well, which would also add to the on-going famine. Not only that, but by this time, the air will most likely be pretty polluted with all that will have happened up to this point and with a third of the trees gone, there will be a third less oxigen being replenished to clean the air. The trumpet judgments seem to me to be the worst, especially the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpets, which are also designated as three woes, which I will expound on when we get to them. I have my theory about why these trumpets are called woes, which some would not agree with nor have they even considered, so I will be anxious to hear your feedback on this. There are many who claim that the book of Revelation as being poetic, hyperbole and symbolic, where though there are symbolisms in Revelation, there is nothing poetic or hyperbole about this book.

      So, that is it for now until your next post,

      Yours in Christ – don

      PS Good, you finally put a picture up! Now that you know where I am from and you are?

  30. Hi Don,

    Well it’s very nice knowing a little about a fellow bond servant of Christ. As for me, I am from the twin island republic of Trinidad & Tobago. I live on the bigger island-Trinidad, I am married and have four daughters. Until a year or so ago I was the Sales & Marketing Manager of a large steel company as well as the Branch Chairman of the local chapter of the Trade Union. I was called to faith around November 2008 and I tendered my immediate resignation, my ex-employers refused to pay me my severance benefits for 17 years service and God guided me not to pursue but rather to trust in Him for all my provisions. It was difficult to begin with but as time went on, all my needs were being met to my amazement. BTW the company went into bankruptcy in June 2009. I have been studying the bible since and have done in depth studies on Genesis, Ruth, Luke, Revelations, God’s sovereignty, Christ’s resurrection and more. I have been commissioned on Jan 4, 2010 as a Sales & Business Development Consultant with a wholesaler in Trinidad and I work form my home, pretty cool. I can work and continue my studies at the same time. I have to say that my life has changed dramatically over the past year, things that were important; like travelling, after work parties, hanging out with buddies etc no longer appeals to me. I am happiest when I am deeply engrossed in my studies of God’s word and I enjoy sharing it with others.

    Continuing on our subject matter, yes I am in agreement that the 21 judgments are literal and where symbolism is used we can find its literal meaning elsewhere in the bible. Rev 8:2-5, 2 And I saw the seven angels who stand before God; and seven trumpets were given to them. 3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, holding a golden censer; and much incense was given to him, that he might add it to the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne. 4 And the smoke of the incense, with the prayers of the saints, went up before God out of the angel’s hand. 5 And the angel took the censer; and he filled it with the fire of the altar and threw it to the earth; and there followed peals of thunder and sounds and flashes of lightning and an earthquake.

    During the silence, the seven angels were given trumpets, important to John, because of his Jewish heritage he understood the role of trumpets in Israel’s customs. According to Num 10, trumpets had three important uses: they called the people together (Num 10:1-8); they announced war (Num 10:9); and they announced special times (Num 10:10). The trumpet sounded at Mount Sinai when the Law was given (Ex 19:16-19), and trumpets were blown when the king was anointed and enthroned (1 Kings 1:34,39). Of course, everyone familiar with the Old Testament would remember the trumpets at the conquest of Jericho (Josh 6:13-16).

    The “prayers of the saints” (Rev 8:4) are not the prayers of a special group of people in heaven who have arrived at “sainthood.” To begin with, all God’s children are saints – set apart for God – through faith in Jesus Christ (2 Cor 1:1; 9:1,12; 13:13). And there is no definite teaching in the Scriptures that people in heaven pray for believers on earth, or that we can direct our prayers to God through them (much like what we see in the Catholic Church). We pray to the Father through the Son, for He alone is worthy (Rev 5:3). For centuries, God’s people have been praying, “Thy kingdom come, Thy will be done!” and now those prayers are about to be fulfilled. Likewise, the Tribulation martyrs prayed for God to avenge them (Rev 6:9-11), a common plea of David in the Psalms (Ps 7; 26; 35; 52; 55; and Ps 58 for example). These “imprecatory psalms” are not expressions of selfish personal vengeance, but rather cries for God to uphold His holy Law and vindicate His people.

    On the great Day of Atonement, the high priest would put incense on the coals in the censer and, with the blood of the sacrifice, enter the holy of holies (Lev 16:11-14). But in this scene, the angel put the incense on the altar (presented the prayers before God) and then cast the coals from the altar to the earth! The parallel in Ezek 10 indicates that this symbolized God’s judgment; and the effects described in Rev 8:5 substantiate this view. A storm is about to begin! (Rev 4:5; 11:19; 16:18)

    A critical factor here is that a warning is given separate from the judgments to come with peals of thunder, flashes of lightning and an earthquake. This is God showing reverential appreciation for the silence shown to Him for about 30 minutes in His presence by all who were before Him in heaven. This follows a lot of preparation for the 7 trumpet judgments to come. Rev 8:6, 6 And the seven angels who had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound them.

    Rev 8:7, 7 And the first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. This is similar to Ex 9:23-24, 23 And Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, and the Lord sent thunder and hail, and fire ran down to the earth. And the Lord rained hail on the land of Egypt.

    At this point the earth begins to become useless it represents a third of the world; a continent or so will be struck and rendered useless and inhabitable.

    Rev 8:8-9, 8 And the second angel sounded, and something like a great mountain burning with fire was thrown into the sea; and a third of the sea became blood; 9 and a third of the creatures, which were in the sea and had life, died; and a third of the ships were destroyed.

    The second trumpet (maybe a celestial body or a supernatural event) judgment supports my reason that a continent or so would be wiped out, look at the sea a third of it is gone, to think that it happens in different areas of the world’s seas is like swimming only in the chlorinated part of the pool. The ships would sink because they would be unable to displace the blood as they would do in the water.

    Rev 8:10-11, 10 And the third angel sounded, and a great star fell from heaven, burning like a torch, and it fell on a third of the rivers and on the springs of waters; 11 and the name of the star is called Wormwood; and a third of the waters became wormwood; and many men died from the waters, because they were made bitter.

    This is unique in that a name is given to the star, Wormwood. It is fact that stars are commonly associated with angels but in this case we must look at the plain sense of scriptures. The hows and whys are of little or no importance, rather the pattern of results in making a great portion of the world unusable.

    Rev 8:12, 12 And the fourth angel sounded, and a third of the sun and a third of the moon and a third of the stars were smitten, so that a third of them might be darkened and the day might not shine for a third of it, and the night in the same way.

    The judgments from the first three trumpets affected only a third part of the land and waters, but this fourth judgment affects the entire world. It gets to the very source of the earth’s life and energy, the sun. With one third less sunlight on the earth, there will be one third less energy available to support the life systems of man and nature.

    Rev 8:13, 13 And I looked, and I heard an eagle flying in midheaven, saying with a loud voice, “Woe, woe, woe, to those who dwell on the earth, because of the remaining blasts of the trumpet of the three angels who are about to sound!”

    I know you are anxious about the three woe judgments so I’ll give you my interpretations of what they mean. The three “woes” in Rev 8:13 refer to the judgments yet to come when the remaining three angels blow their trumpets. It is as though the messenger cried, “If you think this has been terrible, just wait! The worst is yet to come! ” They represent the coming end for any opportunity for salvation, it would be literally hell on earth. For 5 months unbelievers would not die, in fact it is the only time in history that man would know exactly how long he has to live. The prevention of death is a blessing from God and not a curse, God is granting phenomenal grace for men to come to repentance having been given a literal look into what eternity in hell would be. This is my belief of the first woe. I’ll await your views then post the second woe views.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Good day Wesley,

      I am here at work for my Saturday 12 hour shift again and the same for tomorrow. Trinidad huh? I did a Google Earth on your island and saw that you are at the very south of the Lesser Anilles and just above Venezuela. So, do you live on the coast or inland? I lived on the island of Guam for 2 years and it was beautiful, with very clear, 85 degree ocean water. I will be in Puerto Rico on a surf trip with my brothers in about two weeks, which is somewhat in your vicinity. So, do you do a lot of water sports? And how is the water around your island, clear and warm? My two favorite places are the desert and tropical islands. I am amazed at how much you have learned of God’s word in such a short time. It is also good that you can work from home, because you can also be with your family. I too am able to study at work, as I am the only one here and like today, I work 12 hours, so I always bring God’s word with me. It is good to hear that you are doing so well.

      In regards to the “prayers of the saints,” yes, I agree as well that these are the prayers of the saints upon the earth, as they will be going through the worst time in history, especially the last 3 1/2 years of which Jesus said:

      “For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now–and never to be equaled again.”

      The four living creatures and the twenty four elders are all seen as holding golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints (Rev.5:8) and then I assume at some point, they give these golden bowls full of incense and prayers to the angel at the altar to offer up before God just prior to the trumpet judgments (Rev.8:3-4).

      Yes, I agree with you also in that, when a person comes to Jesus, he or she becomes a saint of God at that moment and it is not a position that one would need to ascend to as the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) would have us believe. Every time I hear that the RCC has just elevated one of their people to sainthood, I yell at the TV or the internet and say “Sainthood is not something that you have to work at!” The RCC is the most deceiving religious institution on the earth. She is the “woman who rides the beast” the one who sits on seven hills and sits upon many waters of Rev.17 & 18, but we can look at that when we get there. In regards to the following:

      “Rev 8:7, 7 And the first sounded, and there came hail and fire, mixed with blood, and they were thrown to the earth; and a third of the earth was burned up, and a third of the trees were burned up, and all the green grass was burned up. This is similar to Ex 9:23-24, 23 And Moses stretched out his staff toward the sky, and the Lord sent thunder and hail, and fire ran down to the earth. And the Lord rained hail on the land of Egypt.”

      They are similar, except for the blood part. If this is natural, we can explain the hail and the fire, but the blood mixed with them would be hardpressed to find a natural cause to carry this out, unless the blood is not actual blood, but something that resembles the color of blood. Otherwise, it would seem that this hail and fire mixed with blood comes directly from God. Before we skip through the trumpets, I would like to go back and expound on them as there is much information to discuss for each one and since we have already covered the 1st trumpet, I will begin with the 2nd trumpet.

      2nd Trumpet:
      “The second angel sounded his trumpet, and something like a huge mountain, all ablaze, was thrown into the sea. A third of the sea turned into blood, a third of the living creatures in the sea died and and third of the ships were destroyed.”

      First, I’m sure that you will agree that we have to remember that John saw visions of the future. And that the book of revelation did not come from his own imagination nor did he write it from his own thinking, but he wrote down all that he saw and heard of the visions that God showed to him. John says that he sees something like a huge mountain, all ablaze and was thrown into the sea. My take on this is that, John is seeing what he describes as a huge mountain all ablaze, which would infer that it is on fire. I believe that what John saw was either an asteroid or meteorite coming through the earth’s atmosphere, which would explain why it was all ablaze, being that it would be entering the earth’s atmosphere and causing it to heat up. Obviously, this object is big enough that it makes it through the earth’s atmosphere, because it hits one of the oceans causing three things to happen:

      1. A third of the sea was turned to blood: I feel here that what John describes is not literal blood, but it may be that when this object hits the ocean, the turbulence will affect the bottom as well bringing up all the silt and material that has been sitting on the bottom of the ocean for millennia, which might give it a blood red color. We know that God turns the oceans and fresh water into literal blood during the 3rd and 4th bowl judgments, so I kind of lean towards what John calls blood as something that resembles it in color.

      2. A third of the living creatures in the sea died: Regarding John’s mention of “a third”, I believe that whatever body of water this object hits in, all of the creatures in that body of water will be killed and the mention of “a third” is not a third within that body of water as though some would survive, but over all the earth. In other words, all of the creatures in that body of water will die and it will equal 1/3 in comparison to the entire earth. The reason for all of the sea creatures dying is because, when this object hits the ocean, it will most likely hit the bottom and cause such powerful wave turbulence that nothing will be able to survive from the bottom of the ocean to the top, which is why they all die.

      3. A third of the ships were destroyed: Again, when this asteroid/meteorite hits one of the oceans, because of the speed and size of this object when it hits, it will produce amazingly powerful, fast moving waves, that will be over a mile high and will be moving at over 1000 miles per hour. These waves will wipe out every ship of any size including submarines in that entire body of water and no ship will be able to escape! Not only the ships out at sea, but all of the ships along the coasts as well. Now here is something else to add to this, which writers of revelation fail to take into consideration and that is, these gigantic waves, which will be moving at over supersonic speeds, will destroy all of the coastal cities, as well as the cities and towns that are a couple hundred miles inland 360 degrees. Remember the undersea earthquake in the Indian Ocean that killed over 250,000 people, well this 2nd trumpet will make that incident look like a pebble being thrown into a pond in comparison, as it will affect ever shore of every continent 360 degrees of whatever shores that body of water touches. This is why I said that, many writers fail to take into consideration the fatalities that will result from the 1st, 2nd and 3rd trumpets, as they just cite the 4th seal and the 6th trumpet for their body count, when it will be much more than half.

      3rd Trumpet:
      “The third angel sounded his trumpet, and a great star, blazing like a torch, fell from the sky on a third of the rivers and on the springs of water — the name of the star is Wormwood. A third of the waters turned bitter, and many people died from the waters that had become bitter.”

      Again, this is my take on this, as John describes this as “blazing like a torch.” Something to remember is that, both we in the future along with John can relate things that he is describing which are natural, such oceans, trees, lions, birds, rain, mountains, etc, etc. So, when John calls something a horse for example without any exceptions, it is for all intents and purposes a real horse. Here, John writes that he sees something “blazing like a torch.” Now, what if what John was actually seeing was something like an ICBM nuclear missle coming back down into the atmosphere? The nose of the missle would be pointing towards the earth and the end of the missle where the fire comes out of would make it like like a giant torch, which would be the only thing that John would be able to compare it to. After all, he is not going to be able to say, “Then I saw a nuclear missle coming back down onto the earth.” This could be what he is seeing and his inferrence of it falling on the fresh water and making it bitter, could be regarding nulcear fallout falling into the water, which would indeed cause people to die when they drank it. This is just a thought as there have been other theories regarding this, but I think that it is pretty plausable. Also, we read here that many people died from drinking the water. We don’t know how many, just that many will die, so you can see what I am talking about in regards to how these three trumpets, though not mentioned, add substancially to the number of fatalities.

      4th Trumpet:
      “The fourth angel sounded his trumpet, and a third of the sun was struck, a third of the moon, and a third of the stars, so that a third of them turned dark. A third of the day was without light, and also a third of the night.”

      Now regarding this 4th trumpet, many have misinterpreted this claiming that when this trumpet is blown they say that, there will be more hours of darkness and less hours of daylight, but that is not what is happening here. The Sun, moon and stars are struck (smitten), that is, a third of their surface goes dark, so that they will be putting out 1/3 less light, the result being 1/3 less light during the day and during the night, ergo, the earth will only be receiving 2/3’s of the light that it currently recieves. This means that the sun will still rise and set at the same times at all seasons, but the amount of light that the earth will receive will be 1/3 less. In fact, it will probably only be around the equivalent of what Mars normally receives. The only thing that I can imagine as the reason for this judgment is that, the reduced light will have a negetive or forboding affect upon the inhabitants of the earth. It reminds me of what is written regarding the darkness during the “day of the Lord:”

      “That day will be a day of wrath, a day of distress and anguish, a day of trouble and ruin, a day of darkness and gloom. a day of clouds and blackness,”

      “As I watched, I heard an angel that was flying in midair call out in a loud voice: “Woe! Woe! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth, because of the trumpet blasts about to be sounded by the other three angels!”

      I will continue the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpets/Woes on a seperate post since there is much information. I will be anxious to hear what your thoughts are regarding the informaiton listed here.

      Yours in Christ – Don

    • As the title suggests, this posting is in regards to the first, second and third Woes, which are the fifth, sixth and seventh trumpet judgments respectively, as described in Revevelation chapters 9 and 12. Personally, I believe that the reason that the woes are designated as such is because all three are demonic in nature.

      First Woe/Fifth Trumpet – Revelation 9:1-11

      “The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was give the key to the shaft of the Abyss. When he opened the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth. They were told not to harm the grass of the earth or any plant or tree, but only those people who did not have the seal of God on their foreheads. They were not given power to kill them, but only to torture them for five months. And the agony they suffered was like that of the sting of a scorpion when it strikes a man. During those days men will seek death, but will not find it; they will long to die, but death will elude them. The locust looked like horses prepared for battle. On their heads they wore something like crowns of gold, and their faces resembled human faces. Their hair was like women’s hair, and their teeth were like lions’ teeth. They had breastplates like breastplates of iron, and the sound of their wings was like the thundering of many chariots rushing into battle. They had tails and stings like scorpions, and in their tails they had power to torment people for five months. They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.”

      First, we must identify who the star is that is falling from the sky to the earth. It is said in the verse that “The star was give the key to the shaft of the Abyss”, which immediately tells us that this is no literal star, as he is being given a key. Also, the star is referred to has a “He” and this “he” is opening the Abyss. Therefore, we can deduce that this star is symbolic for some type of living entity. As always, the word of God will reveal the symbolisms found in the book of Revelation. For the answer to this, let’s jump up ahead and take a look at Revelation 12:3-4

      “Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on the heads. His tail swept a third of the [stars] out of the sky and flung them to the earth.”

      Notice that the dragon’s tail swept a third of the [stars] out of the sky. The answer to the identity of these stars is given in Rev. 12:7-9

      “And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his [angels] fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down — that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his [angels] with him.”

      So we can see from the verses above that it mentions the dragon who sweeps a third of the [stars] out of the sky and flings them to the earth and then in verse 9 the dragon is identified as Satan and he, along with his angels, are being hurled to the earth and therefore, the stars and Satan’s angels are synonymous as they are used interchangeably to refer to the same group, that being fallen angels.

      Now getting back to the [He] that opens the Abyss, we can pretty much conclude that this [Star] is an angel. In regards to which camp this angel belongs to, i.e. holy or fallen, I personally lean toward him being a fallen angel. The reason being is because of the wording that is used to describe his descent to the earth.

      “I saw a star that had [fallen] from the sky to the earth.”

      When we compare the wording for the descent from heaven of the angel who unlocks the Abyss and compare it with the angel who locks it back up again at the end of the age, there is a difference between the two:

      Rev. 20:1 – “And I saw an angel [coming down] out of heaven, having the key to the Abyss and holding in his hand a great chain.”

      Here, the angel is [coming down] out of heaven, opposed to the previous one who is [falling] from the sky. Also, in the earlier example from Rev. 12 where the [stars] are representing fallen angels, it may be that since this angel here is also symbolically referred to as a [star], this may be a clue indicating that he is a fallen angel as well.

      The word Abyss comes from the word ‘Abussos’ whose meaning according to Strong’s concordence is ‘bottomless’, referring to the lower regions of the earth, as the abode of demons. Now in regards to the Abyss, this is the same word used when Jesus encountered those demons after he crossed the sea of Galilee over to the area of the Gadarenes found in Luke 8:30-31, who were collectively called “Legion” who begged Jesus not to order them to go into the Abyss. It is also the same place that Satan is cast into by the mighty angel when Christ returns to earth to set up His millennial kindom at the end of the age found in (Rev. 20:1-3).

      When he opens the Abyss, smoke rises up darkening the sky and out from the smoke comes locusts that come down upon the earth and as was stated, they are given power like scorpions of the earth, which is the ablilty to sting. There are many who have written books on the subject of Revelation, some interpreting these locust creatures as Apache heliocopters, planes or some other type of military vehicle. But as we go through the characteristics of these locusts, it is my intention to prove otherwise.

      Whenever studying the word of God, especially the book of Revelation, it is important to pay close attention to every detail. First of all, these locusts have to be let out of the Abyss by an angel, which requires a key to open it. Whether it is a spiritual or physical key, it is not mentioned. They also come out of the Abyss, which as mentioned earlier is the same place that ‘Legion’ begged Jesus not to send them into and is also the same place where Satan is eventually cast into at the return of Christ and therefore, I doubt very much that this is referring to some secret underground helicopter base, as they would have one heck of a bug problem! It is said that these locusts are given power to torment mankind for five months, those who do not have the seal of God in their foreheads. Something to take notice of is that it is said that they are [given] power to torment by stinging for five months, which means that someone of authority has got to be granting them that ability. As well as being given power to torment, they are also told not to harm the grass, plants or trees, which is normally what a locust would do, except that they are commanded not to. So by these statements, it appears that these locust creatures are inteligent beings as they are obeying instructions.

      As stated, the only group of people who they are not to harm are those who have the seal of God in their foreheads, which are made up only of those 144,000 mentioned as being sealed in revelation chapter 7 and mentioned again in chapter 14. They are 12,000 from each of the twelve tribes of Israel, which are referred to as the servants of God, which means that these are obviously Israelites that have come to acknowledge Jesus as their Messiah, also referred to as the “Firstfruits” of God.” So here again, we have more proof that these locust creatures are displaying characteristics of inteligence, in that they are able to discern between those who have the seal of God and those who do not. And just for the record, it is stated that only those with the seal of God in their foreheads are exempt from the stings of these creatures. I bring this up because, some in their writings have made the statement that the saints of God are included in this protectected from the stings of these creatures. I pray that this will be the case, but scripture simply does not support this. It only states that the 144,000 out of Israel are exempt from this torment and so we cannot go beyond what is written. In regards to the torment that they impose, it is said that men will seek death, but death will elude them. We see it everyday on TV, the internet, in the papers, that almost everyday someone has taken their life or the lives of others, either by shooting, by overdose or by some other means, but during the time of this plague, a person will not be able to escape it by killing themselves. Some might say, how is that posible? In answer to this question, we could also look at the two witnessess who will not be able to be harmed by anyone until the three and a half years of their prophecy has come to an end. In fact, it is written that if anyone tries to harm them fire will proceed from their mouths and devour their enemies. Something to be mindful of is that God controls the elements, atoms, molecules, etc. In any case, death will not be available at the time of this judgment so that they will be forced to endure it.

      These locusts are described as looking like horses prepared for battle. On their heads, it is said that they have something like crowns of gold, their faces resemble human faces, they have hair like women’s hair, and their teeth are like lions’ teeth. I don’t know of any garden variety locusts that fit that discription! It is also said that they have breastplates like iron and they also have wings. As if it wasn’t bad enough that they have tails like scorpions to sting with, they can also fly!

      Another interesting fact about these creatures is that it is said that they have a king over them who resides in the Abyss and whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon and in Greek Apollyon, which in both languages means [destroyer]. This is the same entity of whom it is said comes out of the Abyss and attacks and kills God’s two witnesses found in Rev. 11:7-8. He is also mentioned in Rev. 17:8 as the beast who once was, now is not and yet will come up out of the Abyss and then go to his destruction. After studying all of the characteristics of these locust creatures and the fact that their king is referred to as the “Angel of the Abyss”, I would have to come to the conclusion that these locusts creatures that come out of the Abyss are none other than demonic beings, demons.

      First Woe conclusion: what we have are possibly millions of demons that have the appearance of locusts that look like horses prepared for battle, with hair like women’s hair, teeth like lions teeth, faces that resemble men’s faces, they can fly, they have tails like scorpions that sting and they have as their king, the fallen angel of the Abyss and who are commanded to torment everyone with their stings for five months, all except those that have the seal of God in their foreheads. One can only hope that posttribulationalism is false!

      “The first woe is past, two other woes are yet to come.”

      Second Woe!/Sixth Trumpet – Revelation 9:13-21

      The sixth angel sounded his trumpet, and I heard a voice coming from the horns of the golden altar that is before God. It said to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” And the four angels who had been kept ready for this very hour and day and month and year were released to kill a third of mankind. The number of the mounted troops was two hundred million. I heard their number. The horses and riders I saw in my vision looked like this: Their breastplates were fiery red, dark blue, and yellow as sulfur. The heads of the horses resembled the heads of lions, and out of their mouths came fire, smoke and sulfur. A third of mankind was killed by the three plagues of fire, smoke and sulfur that came out of their mouths. The power of the horses was in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury. The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood — idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.

      Unlike the previous trumpet where death flees away from those who try to kill themselves and the plague is strictly to torment and not to kill, this second woe is just the opposite, as a third of mankind will be killed by these mounted troops. Here in this sixth trumpet, the second woe, is one of only two places where a percentage is given in the book of Revelaton as to how many fatalities there will be as a result, which as mentioned, is a third of the earths population. Taking into consideration that earths current population is just over six billion, a third of that would leave four billion people, which means that two billion people will be killed from this judgment alone. The other percentage listed, is found in the 4th Seal (Rev. 6:7-8), which states that a fourth of the earths population will be killed. If you combine the two percentages, it totals up to 50%, half of the earths population being decimated by just those two judgments alone. What some writers have done is that when they get to this sixth trumpet, they make the statement that at this point half of the worlds population has been killed off, which is incorrect. Remember earlier I said that it is important to pay attention to every detail. What these writers fail to take into account are the fatalities that are not listed as a result of the 1st, 2nd and 3rd trumpet judgments, which after studying those judgments and the impact they will have, as I said in the earlier post, you could realistically add on another billion and a half to two billion people to the list of fatalies, which would leave around one to two billion people left on the earth by the time that the 6th trumpet has completed; and thats not counting the fatalities that will be caused by the bowl judgments which follow.

      As stated there are four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates that have been kept there for millennia for the purpose of being released at a specific hour, day, week, month and year to perform a specific task, which is to kill a third of mankind. The fact that these angels are bound, tells me that they are of the fallen variety, else they would not be bound. Now, one thing that I want to mention is that, many writers on this subject have played follow the leader and have interpreted the two hundered million mounted troops as being synonymous with the the kings from the east that come across the Euphrates river which is dried up at the sixth bowl judgment, which I could never figure out as to why they made that assessment. The only thing that the sixth trumpet and the sixth bowl judgments have in common is the Euphrates river. The kings of the east cross over it and these four evil angels are bound there. that’s it! That is hardly enough information to conclude that the kings of the east and the two hundred million mounted troops are one in the same. First of all, the first thing that these four angels do once they have been released, is to go and gather this army of mounted troops for the purpose of killing a third of mankind. The way in which they perform this is through these horses that are mentioned, which have fire, smoke and sulfur proceeding from their mouths. Let’s look at the discription of these horses.

      John describes them first of all as horses, which is something the people of every age would have in common with John, that is to say, when John mentions things of God’s creation such as a horse, lion, serpent, mountain, the sea, etc, we are on the same playing field, that is that we can relate on the same level as to what John is conveying. That said, when John says “horse”, he means “horse” and not some futuristic military vehicle, simply because John knows what a horse looks like. John has already displayed the ability to convey the idea of likeness. For example in verse 17 he says that the “heads of the horses [resembled] the heads of lions”, i.e. not exactly a lions head, but something resembling it. And with an earlier example in the first woe, he said regarding the description of the locusts, that “their faces [resembled] human faces.” My point is, in describing the horses, John does not say that they resemble horses or have the likeness of horse, but for all intent and purposes these are literal horses, with the exception of the heads that resemble lions heads and the tails that resemble serpent’s. These are the only differences, as the rest of body is every bit a horses body. Another example is, when John witnesses the second trumpet judgment, he is describing a meteor or an astroid coming through the earth’s atmosphere and uses the phrase “Something like a huge mountain all ablaze, was thrown into the sea.” John doesn’t know to be able to refer to it as an asteroid or a meteor because those are future, scientific designations and so he relates it to something close to it, like a huge mountain. To further my point, if John was was seeing in his vision a tank for example, he would not call it a horse because John knows what a horse looks like. He wouldn’t even say that it even resembled a horse. If anything, he would call it a chariot or a carriage because it has wheels and so the closest thing that he could relate to a tank or any other vehicle would be something relatable to his time era, which would be a chariot or a carriage, which in fact he does mention in Revelation 18:13 to describe automobiles. The point that I am getting at here is, since these are apparently literal horses, and the fact that they have heads that resemble lions heads with fire, smoke and sulfur proceeding from their mouths, this leads me to believe that these two hundred million mounted troups are another group of demonic beings. And if you think that fire proceeding from the mouth of these creatures is too far fetched, remember that in revelation chapter eleven that in describing God’s two witnesses, it is said that anyone who tries to harm them will be killed by fire proceeding from their mouths.

      Consider the fact that in the previous trumpet judgment, the Abyss was opened and according to Rev. 20:1-3, the Abyss remains open until Christ’s return at the end of the the tribulation period, which is the end of the age. What if these four evil angels, when they are released, go and gather from the Abyss these two hundred million mounted demonic troops for the purpose of killing a third of mankind? Something else to consider is another characteristic of these horses of which John said ” their tails were like snakes, having heads with which they inflict injury.” So in regards to the tails of these horses, unlike the heads that kill, the tails inflict injury. This would be another reason to consider these as demonic beings as opposed to some futurist military vehicles.

      Notice that after a third of mankind was killed by these plagues, that it states that of those who are left, that were not killed, that they still would not repent of worshiping demons and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood. Nor did they repent of their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts. The first thing to take notice of is, that by saying that those who were still alive after that plague was completed, that they would not repent of those sins mentioned, would infer that these plagues are performed in a relatively short period of time, opposed to many centuries. The reason that I bring this up is because, you have those who believe in what is called the historical view that say, the seals, trumpets and bowls represent events that have taken place throughout history starting with the first century, which would have the whole wrath of God spread out over two thousand years and therefore, it would not make sense for John to say, that those who did not die from these plagues still would not repent. The plague denotes immediate calamity, with those who are left alive not responding favorably to God, who is looking for repentance. The historical view would also not coincide with what Jesus said about this time period and that being: “except those days were shortened, no one would survive. But for the elects sake, those days will be shortened.”

      Second Woe conclusion: Four evil angels bound at the great river Eurphrates are released, who go to the previously opened Abyss, gathering a demonic army of two hundered million with riders and horses that have two exceptions, those being that the horses have heads that resemble lions heads that kill a third of mankind by fire, smoke and sulfur that proceeds from their mouths and tails that are like serpents with heads that inflict injury.

      Note: Chapters 10 and 11 are parenthetic pauses, with the third woe beginning in chapter 12.

      Third Woe!/Seventh Trumpet – Revelation 12:7-12

      For some reason, most fail to recognize or understand the third woe, but it is definitely listed there in black and white. And it is in keeping with my belief that, as stated in the beginning of this post, that the woes are designated as such because all three are demonic in nature.

      Revelation 12:7-12

      “And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and the dragon and his angels fought back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven. The great dragon was hurled down — that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him. Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say:”

      “Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, have been hurled down. They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love thier lives so much as to shrink from death. Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them!

      (Third woe coming up)</stong)

      But [WOE] to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short."

      So there you have it! The third woe is Satan and his angels being cast down to the earth at around the middle part of that seven year period. How did I arrive at the time in which he is cast out? From the following verse.

      Revelation 12:14 – The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of for a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent's reach.

      The "time, times and half a time" mentioned in the verse above is in reference to the middle part of that last seven year period up to the end of the seven when Christ returns. Time (1 year), Times (2 years) half a time (half a year), equals
      3 1/2 years. At about the middle part of the seven year period, war is going to break out in heaven between Michael and his holy angels against Satan and his fallen angels; they are the one third he swept ouf of the sky in Rev. 12:4. Of course, as stated, they will not be strong enough to defeat Michael and his angels and are cast down to the earth, which was mentioned is the third woe. It is designated as such because, now that Satan and his angels are restricted to the earth, they will be able to focus all of their malice and evil against mankind, specifically against those saints present in that last three and a half years, which Jesus refers to as "The great tribulation." He does this because he knows that his time is short. In regards to this third woe, the results for the saints are as follows:

      Daniel 7:25 – "He will speak against the Most High and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time."

      And

      Revelation 13:7 – "He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them. And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation."

      This mention of war between Michael, Satan and their angels is still a future event. There are those who try to teach that this event has already taken place, but the fact is that we know that Satan has access to God's presence, which is found in Job 1:6-12, where it states that one day the angels came to present themselves before the Lord and Satan also came with them. Here in Revelation 12:10 after Satan and his angels are thrown out of heaven, it is said:

      "Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, And the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has been hurled down."

      So Satan is currently there before God accusing us before Him and he will continue to do so against the saints during the tribulation period up until the middle of the seven year period, where at that time he and his angels get hurled to the earth. Another proof that his being cast out is still future is that, when he does get cast down the following is stated:

      Revelation 12:12 – Therefore, rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.

      Obviously, those in heaven will rejoice when this event takes place, because they are obviously tired of listening to his continual accusations.

      Notice that he is "filled with fury because his time is short." The mention of his time being short is in reference to the fact that, from the the time that he is cast out of heaven to the earth, he only has a time, times and half a time, that is, 3 1/2 years to do his worst against God's saints, because at the end of the 3 1/2 years, which is when Christ returns, Satan will be cast into the Abyss and kept there during the millennium and there is nothing that he can do to prevent it.

      First Woe – Demons let out of the Abyss to torment mankind with the stings of a scorpions for five months, except for those who have the seal of God in their foreheads.

      Second Woe – Four evil angels that are bound at the great river Eurphrates are released and go and gather from the Abyss two hundered million demonic troops with horses that kill a third of mankind by fire, smoke and sulfur, which proceeds from thier mouths.

      Third Woe – Satan and his angels are cast out of heaven to the earth and through the beast, will make war against the saints and conquer them. According to Revelation 20:4, they are beheaded for their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God.

      Well that was a lot of information Wesley, which came from a previous post that I had done. I will look forward to your thoughts regarding the trumpet woes.

      As always, yours in Christ – Don

  31. Greetings Don,

    Permit me the opportunity to humbly apologize for the late post, my internet service went down on Saturday and I am keeping my fingers crossed that I can get through with this post. Regarding my abode, I dwell inland but I can get to the beach in about an hour’s time depending on traffic and which beach I’m visiting. My little island is pretty famous, we’ve recently (Apr 2009) hosted the 5th Summit of the Americas and welcomed your President Obama, in Nov 2009 we host Common Wealth Heads of Government Conference and welcomed Queen Elizabeth II, we have 2 Ms Universe winners, a Miss World winner, we are the home of the steelpan musical instrument, calypso, soca, carnival, limbo etc. We are one the largest producers of Natural Gas and Methanol in World. Maybe one day when I’m prepared and God is willing you can come visit.

    As far as our substantive discussions go I have to say WOW! WOW! on your last two posts regarding the trumpet judgments that include the all important woe judgments. Your have some remarkable interpretations that indeed have tremendous credibility as to what some of the symbolism represent. I have tried not to delve to deeply into the analyzing what some of them may mean, rather I focus on the outcome. I understand where a horse is mentioned in the gospels it usually represents war, so whenever I see horses denoted I immediately conclude that war is coming.

    Rev 9:1-5, 9 And the fifth angel sounded, and I saw a star from heaven which had fallen to the earth; and the key of the bottomless pit was given to him. 2 And he opened the bottomless pit; and smoke went up out of the pit, like the smoke of a great furnace; and the sun and the air were darkened by the smoke of the pit. 3 And out of the smoke came forth locusts upon the earth; and power was given them, as the scorpions of the earth have power. 4 And they were told that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads. 5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man.

    Many people have claimed that the scorpions are Apache Helicopters, like you I disagree and believe that they are supernatural beings given that they came out of the pit (Abyss).
    4 And they were told that they should not hurt the grass of the earth, nor any green thing, nor any tree, but only the men who do not have the seal of God on their foreheads.
    Compare this to:
    Rev 7:3, 3 saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.”

    The sixth seal is actually when the judgments would be felt on the earth, it therefore stands to reason that the 144,000 would have been sealed for ministry between the 1st – 5th seal. The 144,000 would be protected against the trumpet judgments including the woe judgments. During this time the 144,000 would have time to evangelize and others would be brought to faith, while there is no mention that the “new believers” were sealed we should look at God’s character and purpose. Why is God drawing out the judgments unless He continues to draw more and more people to Him, those whom He called and were evangelized by the 144,000 would then have the Holy Spirit as their seal and therefore will be saved. There is a parallel that is consistent with God’s character in history that would support my view on the new believers being spared the woe judgments:
    Ezek 9:1-6, 9 Then He cried out in my hearing with a loud voice saying, “Draw near, O executioners of the city, each with his destroying weapon in his hand.” 2 And behold, six men came from the direction of the upper gate which faces north, each with his shattering weapon in his hand; and among them was a certain man clothed in linen with a writing case at his loins. And they went in and stood beside the bronze altar. 3 Then the glory of the God of Israel went up from the cherub on which it had been, to the threshold of the temple. And He called to the man clothed in linen at whose loins was the writing case. 4 And the Lord said to him, “Go through the midst of the city, even through the midst of Jerusalem, and put a mark on the foreheads of the men who sigh and groan over all the abominations which are being committed in its midst.” 5 But to the others He said in my hearing, “Go through the city after him and strike; do not let your eye have pity, and do not spare. 6 “Utterly slay old men, young men, maidens, little children, and women, but do not touch any man on whom is the mark; and you shall start from My sanctuary.” So they started with the elders who were before the temple.
    What we have here are those who sigh and moan being spared from God’s wrath because of their faithfulness to God.

    Rev 9:5-11, 5 And they were not permitted to kill anyone, but to torment for five months; and their torment was like the torment of a scorpion when it stings a man. 6 And in those days men will seek death and will not find it; and they will long to die and death flees from them. 7 And the appearance of the locusts was like horses prepared for battle; and on their heads, as it were, crowns like gold, and their faces were like the faces of men. 8 And they had hair like the hair of women, and their teeth were like the teeth of lions. 9 And they had breastplates like breastplates of iron; and the sound of their wings was like the sound of chariots, of many horses rushing to battle. 10 And they have tails like scorpions, and stings; and in their tails is their power to hurt men for five months. 11 They have as king over them, the angel of the abyss; his name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in the Greek he has the name Apollyon.

    I see the tormentors as supernatural beings that cannot be stopped or prevented in anyway from fulfilling their purpose and would do so over a concurrent period of 5 months. As a believer death is welcomed as we would be present with the Lord, for the unbelievers; death is their worst enemy because they are destined for hell. The fact that they cannot die for 5 months is as I said in my previous post is a time of tremendous grace shown by God to those who are suffering being given a chance to come to faith and be saved.
    Rev 9:12, 12 The first woe is past; behold, two woes are still coming after these things.

    Rev 9:13-17, 13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, 14 one saying to the sixth angel who had the trumpet, “Release the four angels who are bound at the great river Euphrates.” 15 And the four angels, who had been prepared for the hour and day and month and year, were released, so that they might kill a third of mankind. 16 And the number of the armies of the horsemen was two hundred million; I heard the number of them.

    The angels being bound is fact that they are evil, God does not bind His good angels!

    There are those who believe that the 200 million mentioned are the Chinese Army. Let’s look at the facts, there are four angels, are these angels going to lead the Chinese army? I think not! What does China have to do with the river Euphrates? Nothing! And why did John pause to mention “I heard the number of them?” This I believe is the ultimate proof that John knows that people would deny or even conclude that the number is pure symbolism rather than recognize that it is in fact a supernatural force.

    Rev 9:17-21, 17 And this is how I saw in the vision the horses and those who sat on them: the riders had breastplates the color of fire and of hyacinth and of brimstone; and the heads of the horses are like the heads of lions; and out of their mouths proceed fire and smoke and brimstone. 18 A third of mankind was killed by these three plagues, by the fire and the smoke and the brimstone, which proceeded out of their mouths. 19 For the power of the horses is in their mouths and in their tails; for their tails are like serpents and have heads; and with them they do harm. 20 And the rest of mankind, who were not killed by these plagues, did not repent of the works of their hands, so as not to worship demons, and the idols of gold and of silver and of brass and of stone and of wood, which can neither see nor hear nor walk; 21 and they did not repent of their murders nor of their sorceries nor of their immorality nor of their thefts.

    The death brought about by the 200 million supernatural beings are detailed in verses 17 – 19. Herein also rests another clue that this is a supernatural occurrence, the causes of death are fire, smoke and brimstone. No one knows conclusively what brimstone is, whenever it is used is always supernatural in nature and used by God to bring about His judgment. The rest of the verses brings to bear the righteousness of God’s judgment against unbelievers, despite His attempts to bring them to faith and confess Him, they choose instead to curse God through their carnal sinful ways.

    There is picture being painted here, it is one that depicts the world becoming uninhabitable in many places, population being reduced by literal billions of people and the focus being centralized in the Middle East. It is abundantly clear that the dynamics of the world are going to be changed significantly and thereby reducing the number of nations to 10. In scriptures there are numerous references to those who turned from God. Cain went to the east, Esau went to the east, Canaan went to the east, Ishmael went to the east. Are you seeing the picture being developed here?

    The third woe is yet to come as it relates to our discussions but there is a lull before it comes and I would like to stay the course until scriptures take us there. What we are faced with from chapter 10 however is a critical time – mid-tribulation and that would occupy our attention for a while to come, God willing.

    Till we post again, God’s blessings be with you through Christ Jesus our Lord and Savior.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hello again Wesley!

      I must say, your island sounds like a beautiful place. No need to apologize regarding the late post. Things happen that we cannot control. Though I enjoy our fellowship, there is no rush to respond. So, you have steel pan drums called Calypso? I l like those drums. By the way, thank you for the invite. Now regarding Miss Universe, he, he….

      In regards to God’s word, he has revealed and moved me to know the details of his word, especially with the literalacy and symbolism in Revelation. Regarding your comment on the “horse” representing “War,” I have found that, symbolisms are not restricted to one specific symbolic meaning. Sometimes a horse is just a horse. A good example would be the word “Star.” This word is used in Revelation to represent several different things such as, angels, literal stars, meteorites or asteroids, the twelve tribes of Israel, Jesus as the bright morning star, possibly a nuclear missle, etc. In the case of the these mentioned in the 6th trumpet, as I said, I believe them to be demonic beings that those four evil angels gather together to carry out the killing of 1/3 of mankind. John would not call them horses unless they actually were horses. So, he calls them horses and then gives the exceptions, those being, heads that resemble lions heads and tails resembling serpents. Otherwise, the rest of the body is in every respect, a horses body. People like to think that, just because John lived in the 1st century, that he is describing futuristic machines, but what they don’t take into consideration is that, John is on the same level with us, in that, he knows what a horse is and so do we. Therefore, John is able to relate to us the natural things that God created, so that when he says, mountain, lion, dog, bird, sea, tree, we know what he is talking about. If it was not a horse, then John would not call it a horse, but he would say that it “resembled” a horse or a lion, or a mountain. My point is, as I am sure that you already know from the last post is that, John is not going to call something a horse that does not in any way resemble a horse. He already displayed the ablity to liken something to something else. For example he says I saw something “like” a huge mountain, their heads “resembled” lions heads, Their faces “resemble” human faces, a great star blazing “like” a torch, their teeth were “like” lions teeth, etc. As I said in my other post, if John saw a miltary vehicle for example, he would not call it a horse, because it does not resemble a horse at all, because John knows what a horse looks like. Something with wheels, he would most likely call a chariot or a carriage, because that is the closest thing that he can relate it to.

      Regarding the great tribulation saints, as I stated in my last post, I believe that they do experience some of the judgments that are being poured out upon the earth. Here is my example:

      “Never again will they hunger, never again will they thirst. Ths sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat.”

      We know that these are those who will have come out of the great tribulation because the elder tells John that this is where they come from. The inferance that they will never hunger, thirst or have the sun or any scorching heat beat upon them, is in relation to the judgments that are described as taking place and since they are on the earth, they will be affected by those judgments and God is promising them here that, they will never be exposed to those plagues again. I don’t think that we can go beyond what is written. Even though we know the character of God, his word says that, only those 144,000 who are sealed out of the twelve tribes of Israel are exempt from that judgment of torment and so, we should not go beyond that, though like you, my hope is that they will be spared from those things. They just got caught on the other side of the resurrection and catching away unfortunately.

      In regards to the 5th trumpet judgment of being tormented for five months, I agree with you in that, God is showing his mercy. Though the torment is great, if it leads them to repentence, then praise be to God! I have always felt that, the tribulation period, that is, the pouring out of God’s wrath will in fact be equivilent to “God yelling louder to get people’s attention,”since prior to the resurrection and catching away, they will not have responded to God’s gift of salvation and eternal life through his Son. The judgments serve two purposes, one is to get people’s attention for repentance and the other is to pour out those judgments upon those who will not repent.

      Regarding the kings of the east, yes, I do not understand why writers have made them synonymous with those 200 million mounted troops that the four evil angels gather together. It seems like, once someone came out with that idea, then everybody just adopted that interpretation. But, as you know, there is nothing that would link the kings of the east and their armies with these 200 mounted troops. If I was to ask them a question, I would say, show me where the 200 million mounted troops are revealed to be the armies from the east? They would not find any proof of this anywhere, not even a hint. In fact, the only thing that both groups have in common is that, the four angels that gather the 200 million troops are bound at the great river Eurphrates and the kings of the East cross the great river Eurphates. Not only that, but these angels are released at the 6th trumpet and the kings of the East and their armies don’t cross over the Eurphrates until the 6th Bowl judgment, which is near the time for the Lord to return.

      Now in regards to the three woes, I believe that they follow sequencially one after another. I do not believe that
      Rev.10 & 11 interrupt the continuence of the judgments that are being poured out upon the earth. I believe that they are what is called “parthenthic pauses,” that is, they are a break in the action in the book only from a reading standpoint, which reveal other aspects of the tribulation period such as the introduction of the two witnesses. In other words, I do not believe that, since the mention of the angel and the scroll in chapter 10, which is followed by the introduction of the two witnesses in chapter 11, that the 3rd woe is hindered because of them. Let me see if I can give an example:

      “A man was walking down a trail in the woods, when suddenly, he saw a black bear, which began running towards him (blacks bears can grow to be 8 ft. tall and have rarely been found to attack humans. Their claws grow to about 4 or 5 inches in length and can weigh up to 1000 lbs.) The bear was now gaining on the man, though he was running as fast as he could. He was thinking to himself, “if I can only get the ranger station that I passed on the way.”
      (The ranger station had been built back in the early 70’s and was still in use and also doubled as a fire department. It only had a compliment of six men, two of which were rangers and the other four worked as firefighters) Now the bear was very close on the mans heals and just about to attack, when suddenly, a shot rang out and the bear fell dead on the trail.

      This is a crude example off the top of my head, but I wanted to point out that though there are interruptions from the readers standpoint, it does not hinder the action that is taking place. That is, just because there is a pause to give some statistics about the bear and also about the ranger station, it does not interrupt the fact that the man is still being chased by the bear. I believe that chapters 10 & 11 are only pauses where the reader is concerned and the purpose of these pauses are to give other information regarding something else in Revelation. The example would be that, from the readers point of view, the action has been delayed in reading only to reveal something else, in this case, the two witnesses. We are told that their time of prophecy will be for 42 months or 3 1/2 years, which I believe will start from the beginnig of the seven until the middle. Once we read this information in chapters 10 and 11, then we continue on to the 3rd woe, which doesn’t pause with those chapters, but only from a reading standpoint. I hope I am not to confusing in my example.

      Anyway, I am here at work and it is about 5:00 am and so I will close for now. As always, I look forward to your thoughts on these things.

      Yours in Christ – Don

  32. Hello Don,

    It seems that we have some differences in opinions involving key issues.

    I stated:
    1. During this time the 144,000 would have time to evangelize and others would be brought to faith, while there is no mention that the “new believers” were sealed we should look at God’s character and purpose. Why is God drawing out the judgments unless He continues to draw more and more people to Him, those whom He called and were evangelized by the 144,000 would then have the Holy Spirit as their seal and therefore will be saved. There is a parallel that is consistent with God’s character in history that would support my view on the new believers being spared the woe judgments: Ezek 9: 1-6 was quoted.

    You stated:
    Regarding the great tribulation saints, as I stated in my last post, I believe that they do experience some of the judgments that are being poured out upon the earth. Here is my example:

    “Never again will they hunger, never again will they thirst. Ths sun will not beat upon them, nor any scorching heat.”

    We know that these are those who will have come out of the great tribulation because the elder tells John that this is where they come from. The inferance that they will never hunger, thirst or have the sun or any scorching heat beat upon them, is in relation to the judgments that are described as taking place and since they are on the earth, they will be affected by those judgments and God is promising them here that, they will never be exposed to those plagues again. I don’t think that we can go beyond what is written. Even though we know the character of God, his word says that, only those 144,000 who are sealed out of the twelve tribes of Israel are exempt from that judgment of torment and so, we should not go beyond that, though like you, my hope is that they will be spared from those things.

    This is what I like, we have an opportunity to research and dwell deeper in God’s word to grow and to learn while making our points of view heard. In Genesis and earlier OT books we know for a fact that there is no biblical evidence to prove conclusively that men were indwelt by the Holy Spirit, the patriarchs like Noah, Abraham, David etc; but we know that they were men of faith and thus men of God. It is only after Christ’s ascension that there is biblical proof of men being indwelt by the Holy Spirit. I believe it is reasonable to deduce that the Holy Spirit has different ways of sealing men for service to God. Although you rightfully said that we should take the text as it is, I am saying that certain things need not be repeated but it is understood. We know that no one seeks after God but throughout the bible we don’t see always where each person is called to faith, you catch my drift. The 144,000 being sealed and mentioned as being sealed, I believe is a unique sealing but does not outweigh the fact that gentiles are no longer being sealed, they are, but in the traditional ways of the Holy Spirit. Whew!

    I stated:
    2. The third woe is yet to come as it relates to our discussions but there is a lull before it comes and I would like to stay the course until scriptures take us there. What we are faced with from chapter 10 however is a critical time – mid-tribulation and that would occupy our attention for a while to come, God willing.

    You stated:
    Now in regards to the three woes, I believe that they follow sequencially one after another. I do not believe that
    Rev.10 & 11 interrupt the continuence of the judgments that are being poured out upon the earth. I believe that they are what is called “parthenthic pauses,” that is, they are a break in the action in the book only from a reading standpoint, which reveal other aspects of the tribulation period such as the introduction of the two witnesses. In other words, I do not believe that, since the mention of the angel and the scroll in chapter 10, which is followed by the introduction of the two witnesses in chapter 11, that the 3rd woe is hindered because of them. (Example given) BTW I totally got your example, does not mean that I agree that the woes continue without interruption. (LOL).

    A great deal of conflict involving the interpretations of the book of Revelations exist because of the events that take place at mid-trib. If this critical point in tribulation is not interpreted the right way the rest of the book would be incorrectly interpreted in its general sense.

    Chapter 10 (Revelations) ties back to chapter 12 (Daniel). Chapter 10 is the transition into mid-trib and spelled the last of the trumpet judgments or the second woe. It is the time of the breaking of the covenant, the very covenant that started the tribulation period of 7 years. I believe that this event is critical and unique in itself and would have overshadowed the third woe if in fact the third woe was happening at this point. Another key point is where is the events of chapter 10 taking place, earth or heaven? I believe these events are overlapping from chapter 9 into chapter 11.

    Rev 11:1-2, 11 And there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Rise and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 “And leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

    This is another mid-trib chapter as evidenced from the time of 42 months given or 3 1/2 years. In this period there is an operating Jewish temple; there is the presence of an altar which is used for sacrifice and the law is restored. John is directed by God to measure the temple and the altar this proves ownership. Not measuring the court is this area is not under ownership at this time but given for 1260 days to the gentiles.

    Rev 11:3-7, 3 “And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies; and if anyone would desire to harm them, in this manner he must be killed. 6 These have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

    Here we have the two witnesses being given supernatural powers for 42 months, 1260 days or 3 1/2 years. What is the purpose of them coming? We already have 144,000 witnessing and evangelizing, how would these 2 make a difference? The fact there are two is related to the law; Deut 19:15, 15 “A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed. When two witnesses are brought it is for the purpose of bringing the iniquities of the world to justice. Zech 2:10,10 “Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the Lord. Zech 4:11-14, 11 Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?” 12 And I answered the second time and said to him, “What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?” 13 So he answered me saying, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

    It has been established that there are two witnesses to testify as required by law against the iniquity of the whole earth. These two have been granted special supernatural powers that bear similarities to the seal and trumpet judgments. If the woes continue, then how would the powers of the two witnesses be distinguishable? Think about the calamities that have passed, men would been witness to them and did not repent, then 2 witnesses come along and men try to kill them and let’s say an earthquake takes place, if the judgments were continuing, how would the world know that it was from the witnesses and not what they have become accustomed to? I think God granted these two witnesses special powers for a purpose and they must be allowed their time before the third woe which is essentially the 7 bowl judgments that herald Christ’s return.

    Quite a lot to review, i’ll await your feedback.

    In grace,

    Wesley

  33. Hello Again,

    There are different theories about what the last trumpet is?
    1 Cor 15:51-52
    51 Behold, I tell you a mystery; we shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we shall be changed.

    Some dispensation scholars have claimed this to be the last trumpet judgment. While pre-trib advocates claim that the last trumpet in 1 Cor 15:51-52 have nothing to do with trumpet judgments.

    I have deliberately interrupted our discussions to seek your counsel on what you believe this is. To claim that there is a pre-trib rapture then claim that 1 Cor 15:51-52 last trumpet is trumpet judgment does not add up, maybe I’m missing something?

    When I examine the whole, I conclude from biblical evidence that the rapture cannot be anything but a pre-trib event. I, therefore hold the opinion that the last trumpet in 1 Cor 15:51-52 is relative to the Jewish feast of trumpets.

    If, for arguments sake the last trumpet is trumpet judgment which incidentally is bowl judgments, then it must be accepted that the church is present on the earth for the seal judgments, trumpet judgments and the three woes. The church (both Jew and Gentiles) would be without the Holy Spirit, undergoing tremendous suffering right alongside unbelievers, advocates of the Antichrist, some would utterly destroyed as there country is wiped off the face of the earth, while others would literally starve to death or slain for not taking the mark of the beast. They have no role in evangelizing new believers because that is a service assigned to the 144,000. So I guess the church would simply be victims of God’s judgments on the earth and its inhabitants?

    Forgive me, but I see no sense moreover no biblical evidence-literal, symbolic or typology that supports this claim. The God that I praise and worship loves me so much that He gave His only begotten Son to die for my sins, He made an opportunity available for my salvation through the grafting in of Gentiles, He calls me His own, He is even so gracious that He tolerates the Devil in His presence accusing us day and night. Are they saying that my God would let me suffer all the atrocities to come without even the Holy Spirit to give me hope?

    Looking forward to your views on this important issue.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hi Wesley,
      Sorry for the late reply. I had a long night at work and was busy non-stop and I was soooo…. tired when I got in this morning. Regarding this issue, as you know, we are in agreement on this. I think we are both in agreement that, 1 Cor 15:51 and 1 Thes 4:16 are speaking of the same event and that being the resurrection an catching away of the entire Church.
      In 1 Thes 4:16 the trumpet is referred to as the “trumpet call of God” and in 1 Cor 15:51-52 it is called “the last trumpet.” Just because there are seven trumpet judgments mentioned does not necessarily mean that the 7th trumpet is that “Last trumpet.” One real good reason why I don’t believe that the seventh trumpet judgment is the “last trumpet” of 1 Cor 15:51-52 is because, when that last trumpet blows, a righteous event takes place and that being, the entire church, dead and alive are resurrected and those living are changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and caught up together with the those who were just resurrected in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. This, as I said, is a righteous event, where as the
      7th trumpet is not a righteous event, but a judgment upon the unfaithful. Not only that, but when this angel blows the seventh trumpet, there is no mention of a resurrection and catching away, but only the judgment. I would therefore agree with you that, this propbably has to do with the feast of trumpets or another type of trumpet and not the sevent trumpet judgement.

      One of the arguments for those who believe in a mid or post resurrection and catching away is that, they say that the early church never taught that the resurrection and catching away of the church would take place prior to Christs return to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom, but, that is in fact exactly what Paul taught. I’m quessing that, you have not read my posting on this issue yet and so I will copy below, because it has most of the reasons and proofs for the resurrection and catching of the church taking taking place prior to Christs return to the earth and in fact showing that the sequence of events are first the resurrection and catching away, followed by the wrath of God. If fact, what many do not even realize is that, Paul referred to the Resurrection and Catching away of 1 Thes 4:13-18 as “the day of the Lord.” This is the only place where this phase of the day of the Lord is revealed, because thoughout the old testament, the day of the Lord was characterized as a day of trouble, of wrath and a day of darkness, but here in the verses mentioned, Paul outlines the resurrection and catching away and then calls it “the day of the Lord.” Read from I Thes 4:13 throug 5:1-11 and you will see what I mean. Below is the posting with all of the proofs and reasons for the pretribulation resurrection and catching away of the church. I will be anxious to see what you think:

      To be sure, there are several views as to when the events of the resurrection and catching away or “rapture” as some call it is to take place in relation to the end of age. One of the major problems regarding the timing of the resurrection and catching away described in 1 Thessalonians 4:16 is that, many make it synonymous with the resurrection of the great tribulation saints, which takes place at Christ’s second coming to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom found in Rev. 20:4. There are two major differences between the resurrection of 1 Thes.4:16 and Rev.20:4. In the resurrection mentioned in 1 Thes.4:16, there are two events which take place, the first being the resurrection of the dead in Christ, which includes all who have died from the beginning of the church period up until the event of the resurrection takes place, then immediately following that, is the “catching away” of those in Christ who are still alive, who will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and caught up in the air with those who were just resurrected. At that point, the entire church from its inception to the end, dead and living, will be gathered together in the air with the Lord where he takes us back to the Father’s house (John 14:1-3). The resurrection described in Rev.20:4, is only a resurrection, as There is no “catching away” associated with this resurrection. That resurrection is made up only of those who were beheaded during the great tibulation period and that because they would not worship the beast or his image nor receive his mark.

      In this posting, when I refer to the “end of the age” it is in reference to Jesus Christ’s physical return to the earth to set up His millennial kingdom. It is not my purpose here to argue against the other views or to compare, but only to present my view according to my own personal studies. Let’s examine the verses:

      I Thessalonians 4:13-18 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep . For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words.

      From the verses above, we can see that the promise are to those who have died in Christ from the beginning of the church, including those who will have died in Christ leading right up to the time of the resurrection, as well as to those who are in Christ that are still alive when this event takes place. As is stated, the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and the trumpet call of God. So, when this event takes place, Jesus will bring with Him the souls of those who have been in His presence in heaven and he will reunite them with their now resurrected bodies. Once that takes place, which will be immediate, then according to Paul in I Corinthians 15:51-53, those who are still alive will be changed, in a flash, in the twinkling of an eye and they will be [caught up] with those who will have just been resurrected from the dead, where according to the Lord’s promise found in John 14:1-3, He will come and take us back to the Father’s house. Regarding the verse in I Thessalonians mentioned above, the expression “will be caught up” is translated from the Greek word “Harpazo”, which conveys the idea of force suddenly exercised or to seize, to carry off by force, to snatch away. This is the same word which is used in regards to Philip when he was [suddenly taken away] from the eunuch by the Spirit of God (Acts 8:39), of Paul when he spoke of being [caught up] to the third heaven (II Cor. 12:2-4) and of the man child being [snatched up] to God’s throne (Rev. 12:5). Basically, at the time that this event takes place, both those who have died in Christ, as well as those who are still alive at His appearing, will take on the characteristics that Paul mentions in I Corinthians 15: 42-44:

      “So will it be with the resurrection of the dead. The body that is sown is perishable, it is raised imperishable; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.”

      And Jesus also said regarding the resurrection:

      Matthew 22:30 – “At the resurrection people will neither marry nor be given in marriage; they will be like the angels in heaven.”

      This resurrection of the dead, which includes the living who are changed in a moment and caught up, is referred to as the “First resurrection”, which is not restricted to one single resurrection, but is made up of several resurrections, Christ being the first fruits, then the church (living and dead), the 144,000 (male child), the white robed saints that come out of the great tribulation and the two witnesses. The first resurrection could be termed as the resurrection that takes place prior to the last one, that is, all the resurrection’s that take place prior to the resurrection of the unjust, which takes place at the end of the millennium, all fall under the banner of “first resurrection.” It is the resurrection that takes place at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ that is the one that a person would not want to find themselves taking part in, for those that take part in that resurrection are the ‘lost dead’ who have been resurrected out of Hades and will be judged according to all that they have done, accountable for all of their sins, without Christ as their mediator, with no hope and no one to rescue them (Rev. 20:4-6).

      Now, as to when the resurrection and the catching away of the church takes place in relation to the return of Christ, there are many clues. First of all, let’s go back to I Thessalonians 4:13-18 and read through chapter 5:1-4:

      I Thessalonians 4:13-18 Brothers, we do not want you to be ignorant about those who fall asleep, or to grieve like the rest of men who have no hope. We believe that Jesus died and rose again and so we believe that God will bring with Jesus those who have fallen asleep in him. According to the Lord’s own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about the times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that [the day of the Lord] will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, “Peace and safety.” destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should suprise you like a thief.

      The first thing to notice is that from verses 4:13-18, Paul is describing the resurrection and catching away. Then, in verse 5:2, he refers to it as “The day of the Lord”, which throughout God’s word is always associated with the time of the wrath of God. There are in fact two phases to the day of the Lord. As we can see from the verses above, the first phase is the resurrection and catching away of all who are in Christ, which is followed by the wrath of God. Paul demonstrates this when in verse 5:2, in referring to the resurrection and catching away, he says:

      “For you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night.”

      Then he says:

      “While people are saying ‘peace and safety’, destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.”

      So, here we have the two phases, “The resurrection and the catching away” and then “sudden destruction”, which follows. Lets look at the entire verse:

      “While people are saying, ‘Peace and safety’, destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.”

      Notice in regards to those of the destruction that it says “they will not escape.” and then he goes on to say, “But you brothers.” Even without reading the rest of the verse, by Paul saying “but you brothers” immediately infers the opposite of those who are not escaping, that is, that they (the brothers) will escape. Which brings us to the question, how will they escape the destruction just mentioned, where as those others do not? The answer is in the first phase of what Paul first wrote about and that being the resurrection and catching away. That is, the day of the Lord is initiated by the resurrection and catching away and for those who remain on the earth, the wrath of God (destruction), which are comprised in the form of the seven seals, seven trumpets and seven bowl judgments, which are mentioned in the book of Revelation.

      Another example that the day of the Lord begins with the resurrection and catching away is found in 2 Peter 3:10-12

      “But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar; the elemnets will be destroyed by fire, and the earth and everything in it will be laid bare. Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy lives as you [look forward to the day of God] and [speed its coming].

      What got my attention in this verse is what I have enclosed in brackets. Peter is describing the results of the the wrath of God being poured upon the earth, then he says “Since everything will be destroyed in this way, what kind of people ought you to be? You ought to live holy lives as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming.

      Why would Peter, after describing these terrible events of destruction that are going to come upon the earth during that time period and then say to ” look forward to the day of God and speed its coming?”

      The answer again is, just as Paul explained that the resurrection and the catching away takes place prior to the wrath, Peter is also privey to the same information being that Paul may have revealed it to him or the Lord may have directly revealed it to Peter as well. In other words, Peter in saying “as you look forward to the day of God and speed its coming”, he is referring to the first phase of the day of the Lord, which is the resurrection and catching away. Let’s look at some other verses that point to this same conclusion found in I Thessalonians 2:1-2

      “Concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our being gathered to him, we ask you brothers, not to become easily unsettled or alarmed by some prophecy, report or letter supposed to have come from us, saying that the day of the Lord has already come.”

      Here, Paul is responding to the concerns of the Thessalonians because it had been said among them by some, that the day of the Lord had already come. The reason for their concern is that, in regards to the day of the Lord, they also knew from Paul’s teaching that the resurrection and catching away would take place first and then the wrath of God would follow and therefore, since they were still on earth, that is, since they had not been caught up, they wrote Paul because they were concerned that they had missed the resurrection and catching away and were now going to be caught in the wrath of God. And of course Paul sets them straight and comforts them by reaffirming that that day would not come until the rebellion occurs and the man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction.

      I believe that the book of Revelation also reveals when the resurrection and catching away will take place in relation to the seals, trumpets and bowls, which represents the wrath of God. We have John being told in Rev. 1:19:

      “Write, therefore, what you have seen, what is now and what will take place later.”

      This divides the book of Revelation up into three parts, 1) what you have seen, 2) what is now and 3) what will take place later. In regards to what John had seen, which was first of all his vision of Christs coming to earth to set up his millennial kingdom Rev. 1:7

      “Look he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him; and all the peoples of the earth will mourn because of him . So shall it be! Amen.”

      Then John hears a voice behind him that sounds like [a trumpet] and when he turns around, he sees the glorified Christ and writes the description of him, which completed what John had [seen]. Then, immediately following what John had seen, he was commanded to write the letters to the seven churches, which are not only representing the actual churches of that time, but represent the entire church period, which is [what is now]. That being said, we are currently still in the [now], being that the church age has not come to its completion. After the last letter is written we move into Rev. 4:1 which is [what will take place later], which is given to the majority of the book of Revelation. The [what will take place later] begins with the following found in Rev. 4:1 –

      “After this I looked, and there before me was a door standing open in heaven. And the voice I had first heard speaking to me like [a trumpet] said, [come up here] and I will show you what must take place [after this].

      There are, I believe, three clues here that points to John representing the church being resurrected and caught up. The first clue is that from chapter 1 through the very end of chapter 3, the word [Ekklesia] translated [church] has been continually used to the very end of chapter 3 and then the word is never used again, it’s missing, which would suggest that the church is missing. The next references found to describe anyone who is in Christ is the word ‘Hagios’, translated ‘Saint’, which is used from then on. The next clue is that John mentions twice, once in verse 1:10 and the other in 4:1 that the voice he hears sounds like [a trumpet], which takes me back to Paul’s description of the resurrection and catching away in I Thes. 4:16 which says:

      “For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the [trumpet call] of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first.”

      I believe that this [trumpet call] mentioned here in I Thes. 4:16 is synonymous with the voice that John hears speaking to him like [a trumpet]. The third clue is that the voice that sounds like a trumpet is saying [Come up here], which is exatly what happens at the resurrection and catching away.

      The wrath of God, also designated “The day of the Lord”, is a time period that will take place prior to Christs return to the earth when at that time, He will establish His millennial kingdom. This wrath, according to the book of Revelation, will be poured out in the form of a seven sealed scroll, which leads into seven trumpets, and then into seven bowl judgments. These judgments will take place within those last seven years and the worst specifically taking place during the last 3 1/2 years which is referred to as “The great tribulation.” Of this time period Jesus said the following:

      Matthew 24:21-22 For then there will be great distress, unequaled from the beginning of the world until now — and never to be equaled again. If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened.

      Regarding this time of wrath, for those who are in Christ Paul said the following:

      I Thessalonians 5:9 – For God did not appoint us to [suffer wrath], but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.

      And he also said the following when speaking to the Thessalonians:

      I Thessalonians 1:10 – and to wait for his Son from heaven, whom he raised from the dead — [Jesus, who rescues us from the coming wrath].

      So, as can be seen from the two verses above, those who are in Christ will not go through or be exposed to the wrath of God, which will be taking place during the seven years prior to Christs return to set up His kingdom.

      In regards to our being rescued from this wrath, Jesus said to the church of Philadelphia:

      Revelation 3: 10 – “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also [keep you from] the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”

      The mention of the “hour of trial” is another designation used to describe that time of wrath that is going to come upon the world. Jesus says that He will “keep us from” that hour of trial. To be kept from it means that we will not even enter into or be exposed to it.

      The following is yet another verse of scripture that points to the resurrection and catching away as taking place prior to the wrath of God.

      II Timothy 2:16-18 “Avoid godless chatter, because those who indulge in it will become more and more ungodly. Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymenaeus and Philetus, who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place, and they destroy the faith of some.”

      First of all, to recap, the resurrection mentioned here has to do specifically with those who have died in Christ. The word resurrection is translated from the Greek word ‘Anastasis’, which denotes “A raising up from the dead.” According to Paul’s outline of the resurrection in I Thessalonians 4:16 and I Corinthians 15:52, those who are still alive when the resurrection takes place will immediately afterwards be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and caught up with those just resurrected to meet the Lord in the air and therefore, the ‘catching away’ is included here when referring to the Resurrection. Notice that Paul labels Hymenaeus and Philetus as those who had wandered away from the truth because they were teaching that the resurrection had already taken place. Paul also stated that by this teaching they were destroying the faith of some, which begs the question, why would the teaching that the resurrection having already taken place destroy anyone’s faith? The answer again can be found in Paul’s outline in I Thessalonians 4:16, where Paul describes the dead in Christ rising first, then those who are still alive being changed in a moment and being caught up to meet the Lord in the air. Therefore, as these men where going about teaching that the resurrection had already taken place, that also meant that the ‘catching away’ had taken place as well and so they would naturally be concerned because they were still here on earth and hadn’t been caught up, which was their hope, which would destroy their faith because they now had nothing to look forward to but the wrath of God, which according to Paul follows the resurrection.

      The resurrection and catching away could not have taken place already as the Preterist proclaim because Jesus said, “I will build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it.” The idea is that, Christ began to build His church and the apostle’s continued in the building and up to this very day the church continues to be built upon and will continue until the very last person whom God forknew, predestined and called, responds. Once the church has been completed, all the dead in Christ from the beginning of the church up until the event of the resurrection, as well as those who are still living at the time that the resurrection takes place, will immediately be changed and caught up, so that the entire church, from the beginning to the end, dead and alive, will be present in the air together at the same time. What follows, will be the revealing of the man of lawlessness and the out-pouring of God’s wrath leading up to Christs return, which ushers in the end of the age.

  34. Hello Don,

    Thanks for timely and comprehensive response to an extremely critical and sensitive issue. Having read your post on this issue I have to say that I am in total agreement and the evidence provided with the supporting biblical texts is overwhelming proof of a pre-trib rapture. The strange thing though is that others who do not support a pre-trib rapture use similar biblical texts and give them their own twist and claim that the rapture would occur at mid-trib, some say at end of tribulations, while others still claim that tribulations have passed and we are simply awaiting Christ’s return.

    I have been having an online discussion about the rapture with a Reverend who holds a post trib view of the rapture. I posted a similar response to yours (see Dec 15, 2009) with as much details and scriptural references and the response he gave was, all the cutting and pasting that I did cannot refute the facts of John 5: 28-29.

    John 5:28-29
    28 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.

    Is he saying that all the other biblical texts are incorrect when they point to a pre-trib rapture? Well I’ve read the entire chapter, John 5, and found that his choice of verse does not even support his claim of a post trib rapture. I have also been following an ongoing post about dispensation and until recently have agreed with almost everything posted, but then there was a post claiming that the last trumpet described in 1 Cor 15:51-52 is a trumpet judgment.

    My friend I do not fellowship with any local church because I have found them to be one tracked minded – $$$. I fellowship for the most part with you, an online ministry in San Antonio, Texas and a close friend of mine here at home. I have come to the revelation that we are indeed the last generation but I will not take any liberties to state a date or make some ludicrous claim of Christ return. There are others however who don’t seem to mind making these unsupported claims and they have a large following who blindly believe their sensationalism.

    My friend the fact is the devil is very busy as he knows his time is short. There is no parallel earth for him to do his bidding so he is on the same earth that Christ is growing His field of wheat (believers). The devil is trying and in some cases succeeding in planting tares amongst the wheat. These tares have a remarkable resemblance to the wheat and can be regarded as a very close imitation of the truth. All this is being done with a goal of neutralizing Christ’s Work. If we weigh in on this clever deception we take note that Christ has a Gospel and the devil too has a gospel which is a counterfeit of Christ’s Gospel. The similarities are so astounding that untold unsaved people are deceived by it.

    The devil is an expert tactician who uses religion and not atheism in his fight against God. He is not interested in proving there is no God, rather, his goal is to be worshipped as God. As I mentioned before, the devil is an imitator and just as God has an only begotten Son (our most beloved Lord Jesus), the devil has a son – the son of perdition, 2 Thess 2:3-4, 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition. NKJV

    Christians be they Jews or Gentiles all believe in the Holy Trinity, this holds an immense importance in the heart of our beliefs and hopes, it is therefore not far-fetched to understand that the devil too would have a trinity, this trinity is the unholy trinity, Rev 20:10, 10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever. NKJV

    We are the children of God (wheat) sown in accordance with God’s will and purpose, on the other side the devil has his own children (tares), Matt 13:38, 38 The field is the world, the good seeds are the sons of the kingdom, but the tares are the sons of the wicked one. NKJV

    There is a mystery of Godliness spoken of in 1 Tim 3:6, 6 not a novice, lest being puffed up with pride he fall into the same condemnation as the devil. NKJV. So also there is a mystery of iniquity as told of in 2 Thess 2:7, 7 For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way.
    NKJV

    God seals His servants on their foreheads, Rev 7:3, 3 saying,”Do not harm the earth, the sea, or the trees till we have sealed the servants of our God on their foreheads.” NKJV. So too does the devil through his agents places his mark on the foreheads of his followers, Rev 13:16, 16 He causes all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hand or on their foreheads. NKJV

    We are told the Spirit of God searches all things of God, even the deep things, 1 Cor 2:10, 10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. NKJV. Then the devil too provides his deep things, Rev 2:24, 24 “Now to you I say, and to the rest in Thyatira, as many as do not have this doctrine, who have not known the depths of Satan, as they say, I will put on you no other burden. NKJV

    As Christ performed miracles, so too can the devil, 2 Thess 2:9, 9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, NKJV.

    As Christ is seated upon a throne, so too the devil is seated upon a throne, Rev 2:13, 13 “I know your works, and where you dwell, where Satan’s throne is. And you hold fast to My name, and did not deny My faith even in the days in which Antipas was My faithful martyr, who was killed among you, where Satan dwells. NKJV

    Christ has His church, the devil his synagogue, Rev 2:9, 9 “I know your works, tribulation, and poverty (but you are rich); and I know the blasphemy of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. NKJV

    Jesus is the light of the world, the devil as an imitator is transformed into an angel of light, 2 Cor 11:14, 14 And no wonder! For Satan himself transforms himself into an angel of light. NKJV
    Jesus appointed apostles, the devil too had appointed ones of his own, 2 Cor 11:13-14, 13 For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into apostles of Christ. NKJV

    Ever since the good news of Christ (the Gospel) was exposed to the world, the devil has been busy implementing his counterfeit gospel through his devotees with the intent of replacing the nearly 2000 year old gospel of truth with clever lies to keep men in darkness and spiritual sleep. Through false teachers, prophets, pastors, deacons, priests, elders and others who have no clue about truth but give an appearance of godliness-much like Joel Osteen, TD Jakes, Creflo Dollar, Kenneth Copeland, Hague, Benny Hinn and others who preach prosperity through Word-faith ministries; all of them have been preaching in error. Their words are seductive to the unbeliever and those who have not been blessed with the power to discern the truth. Their words appear to be harmless or even good, they propose that men should be good and do good things for others, when the bible clearly states that only one is good, God. They are misleading people into believing that God wants prosperity for all and when they don’t get it, it is because their faith was not strong enough. Whenever did the faith of men became a pre-requisite for God to fulfill His will and purpose? It all leads up to works and not even faith that is intermingled with their lies. Soon their congregation starts to hold on to a lie that have them believing that they are in control of their own destiny, they chart their own path, theirs is the only truth and all their accomplishments lead to them saying, I did it my way!!!

    “Woe unto them who call evil, good, and good, evil” [Isaiah 5:20]

    Today we have such false doctrines permeating all aspects of Christianity. They are on the pulpits, in the classroom, at the conferences, knocking on the doors, spewing a counterfeit gospel as prophesied by the Lord Christ Jesus. The Great Apostasy!!!

    I will close today with the following from your last post;
    Revelation 3: 10 – “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also [keep you from] the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Good day Wesley,

      I thank God for your zelousness for the accuracy of God’s word. These people that preach a mid and post tribulation resurrection and catching away, as well as those who claim that we are past the tribulation period, are only concerned about defending the teachings they have adopted from others, claiming revelation as symbolism, poetry and hyperbole. This is one of the reasons that I am thankful that no one has taught me God’s word and that all that I am claiming comes from my own personal studies as I am sure it is the same with you. Now, to begin:

      Your wrote:
      “while others still claim that tribulations have passed and we are simply awaiting Christ’s return.”

      These people have clearly not studied the word of God. We know that the tribulation period is brought to an end by the immediate return of the Lord Jesus, where according to Dan.2:34-35 he will put an end to all human goverment and will set up his millennial kindom.

      “While you were watching, a rock was cut out, but not by human hands. It struck the statue on its fee of iron and clay and smashed them. Then the iron, the clay, the bronze, the silver and the gold were broken to pieces at the same time and became like chaff on a threshing floor in the summer. The wind swept them away without leaving a trace. But the rock that struck the statue became a huge mountain and filled the whole earth.”

      The “Rock” in the verse above is Jesus, which stikes the statue on the feet and since the statue represents all of the world ruling kingdoms that will appear on the earth from beginning to the end, then Jesus is bringing an end to all the human governments upon the earth. Notice the whole statue smashes to pieces never to be found again, but the “Rock” becomes a huge mountain and fills the whole earth, which is speaking of Christs millennial kingdom.

      Also, if we look at Matthew 24, the time of tribulation ends with Christs return. In speaking of that time of tribualation, he said,

      “If those days had not been short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened”

      If you had the tribulation with its judgments being past, then the verse above would make no sense, because we currently have over six billion people on this planet. You and I know from reading about the time of tribulation in Revelation that, there will hardly be anyone left on this earth after the 7th Bowl is poured out. So, for those who say that the tribulation is already past, there is no fulfillment of the prophies that Jesus made. Also, regarding the end of the time of tribulation, Jesus told us how he would come at the end of the age and to not be deceived.

      “So, if anyone tells you; ‘There he is out in the desert,’ do not go out; or, ‘Here he is in the inner rooms, ‘ do not believe it. For as the lightning that comes from the east is visible even in the west, so will be the coing of the Son of Man.”

      The condition of the earth at Christs return will be one of chaos with hardly anyone left, not a thriving world of prosperity! Of that time, also know as “the day of the Lord,” the Lord says in Isaiah,

      “I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.”

      Regarding that time, God’s wrath will continue to be poured out upon the earth in the form of the seven seals, trumpets and bowl judgments, with that wrath culminating at the return of Christ, where all of the kings, generals, their armies and all the people that the angels will have brought will be killed by that double edged sword that procedes from his mouth. These people who claim that the wrath of God is over and that we are just waiting for Christ to return, just do not understand God’s plan. This world will be in shambles and the population greatly reduced when Jesus returns. Has the world seen the beast and his mark yet? Have we seen the false prophet? Not only that, but when the Lord returns, the beast and the false prophet have to be here on earth, because when Jesus returns, he has them taken and cast alive into the lake of fire.

      “Then I saw the beast and the kings of the earth and thier armies gathered together to make war against he rider on the horse and his army. But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur”

      The rider on the horse is Jesus and when he returns to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom, the beast and the false prophet will be thrown alive into the lake of fire and therefore, the destruction that is written about the beast, this antichrist, will have taken place at the time of Christs return. The destruction of the beast and the false prophet are then synonymous with Christs return and I haven’t seen them yet, have you?

      Now regarding John 5:28-29

      “28 “Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming, in which all who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.”

      first, there is nothing in this verse that would support a mid or post tribulation resurrection and catching away. It simply does not identify any time period. This is the very reason that information is listed in different books and verses throughout God’s word and that is so that, with all of the different readings we can get an accurate picture, like a puzzle. Basically, all that the verse above is stating is that, there is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous. If one was to just read this verse in John, it would appear that this resurrection of the “just” and the “unjust” is to take place at the same time, but we know from other verses in God’s word that, the resurrection of the righteous comes first and then the resurrection of the “lost dead” takes place at the end of the thousand year reign of Christ, where they will be resurrected out of Hades to stand before God at the great white throne judgment (Rev.20:4-6,11-15). In fact, anyone who has studied Revelation knows that there are multiple resurrections that take place prior to Christs return to the earth as listed below:

      1. Christ the fruits of the resurrection (1 Cor.15:20-23)
      2. The Church at his appearing (1 Thes 4:16; 1 Cor 15:51).
      3. The Male child (Ibid – the 144,000)
      4. The two witnesses (Rev.11:11-12)
      5. The Great Tribulaiton Saints (Rev 20:4)
      6. The righteous who die die during the millennium will have to be resurrected also, which is not mentioned.

      All the verses that they use for making their claims for a mid or post tribulation resurrection and catching away will not hold water, for the word of God will expose it as a lie. The time leading up until the return of christ to the earth is filled with the wrath of God and as Paul states, “we are not appointed to wrath,” therefore we cannot be here for that time period. They also confuse the tribulation and persecution that comes from men and the powers of darkness with the wrath of God, which are different in nature. The tribulation and persecution that comes from men and the powers of darkness are because of our faith in God the Father and his Son Jesus Christ, where the wrath of God is poured out directly by God in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowls upon an unbelieving and sinful world who will not repent.
      God is not going to pour out his wrath upon his church who have already received his Son and have already repented.
      For the statement made in a couple of places in the book of Revelation is this:

      “The rest of mankind that were not killed by these plagues still did not repent of the work of their hands; they did not stop worshiping demons, and idols of gold, silver, bronze, stone and wood – idols that cannot see or hear or walk. Nor did they repent of their murders, their magic arts, their sexual immorality or their thefts.”

      “The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, but they refused to repeont of what they had done.”

      “From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men. And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.”

      Though God will be throwing the proverbial kitchen sink at them, they still will not repent and so since he can do nothing else to get them to repent, they will be killed upon Jesus return to the earth. Anyway, my point is that, we have already received Christ and have repented and we are works in progress being transformed into the image of Christ as we go from faith to faith. It would make no sense at all for God to pour out his wrath upon those whom he foreknew, predestined, called, justified and glorified.

      Stand strong in the truth of God’s word my friend, for you yourself know that in these last days that there are deceivers who do not hold to the truth of God’s word and are like modern day Pharisees who want to be the “teachers of the law” so to speak and who want to be acknowledge by the people for their position.

      Yours in Christ – Don

  35. Pleasant Sunday Afternoon Don,

    We have an enormous responsibility to teach the word in truth and without fear, favor or reprisal from any person or power. I am fearless because I rely on Jesus to be my advocate always, through Him folks like us are taught not through opinions and clever interpretations but raw truth, 1 Cor 1:17-19, 17 For Christ did not send me to baptize, but to preach the gospel, not in cleverness of speech, that the cross of Christ should not be made void. 18 For the word of the cross is to those who are perishing foolishness, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

    I thank God also for you, your commitment to the word in its only form, perfection and purity. Although we may have differences in the meaning of some verses, I believe that the final outcome is always the same and the expressions of our views on a particular verse(s) is well worth our efforts in search of the truth.

    Recently one of our Caribbean Neighbors – Haiti suffered a 7.0 earthquake resulting in significant lost of lives as well as property damage while Venezuela recorded 5.6 with minimal damage and no casualties. The birth pangs have been increasing in frequency and intensity for some time now and would continue so as Christ told His Apostle John and others. What a glorious time that we live in, soon the corruption and iniquities that plague this world would come to an end and our beloved King shall rule.

    There are things that we need to discuss though, our ongoing discussions on revelations. I propose that we continue tomorrow God willing and that we pray for all those mislead christians and their teachers to seek God’s truth with the Holy Spirit as their guide. Be blessed.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hi Wesley,

      I thought that you might enjoy the post below. I wrote this months ago because of all the people out there like Jehovah’s witnesses, who believe that there is no consciousness after death and in doing so, try to backup there belief that Hades only speaks of the “Grave” and that it is not a temporary place of torment while waiting for judgment. So, what I did was list several key verses that show that there is in fact consciousness and awarness after death for both the righteous and unrighteous.

      I am writing this post specifically to prove the fact of “continued consciousness” of ones soul/spirit after death based on the word of God, and this being in response to those who claim that once a person dies that they are unconscious, unaware and know nothing. They say this to deny the belief that those who die without the Lord are cast into Hades and that the dead are asleep and on unconscious. To back up thier claim they will go to Ecclesiastes 9:5, which says:

      “For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing; they have no further reward, and even the memory of them is forgotten.”

      They cite this verse of scripture while ignoring the many other verses throughout the word of God which speaks to the contrary. First of all, it is important to understand that a human being is made up of body, soul and spirit and not just flesh, for the word of God says in Hebrews 4:12:

      “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing [soul and spirit], joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.”

      So, in the verse above, the word of God is mentioned as affecting body, soul and spirit. In the Ecclesiastes verse, the statement is made that “the dead know nothing.” This is in reference to the [body] that has died and it does not know anything, it is not conscious because the soul and spirit have left it and it is now in the ground and decaying, but what about the soul and spirit?

      II Corinthians 5:6-8 Therefore we are always confident and know that as long as we are at home in the body we are away from the Lord. We live by faith, not by sight. We are confident, I say, and would prefer to be away from the body and at home with the Lord.

      In the verses above, Paul makes the distinction that, as long as we are in these bodies we are absent from the Lord and if we are away from the body, that is, dead, then we are at home with the Lord. In essense, Paul is saying that, as long as we remain alive, we are restricted to our bodies which keeps us from he Lord’s presence, but at the time of death, when our spirits are released from our bodies, then we go to be in His presence. The following event of Lazarus and the Rich Man, as told by the Lord, gives us much insite to what happens after death for both the righteous and the wicked found in Luke 16:19-31:

      “There was a rich man who was dressed in purple and fine linen and lived in luxury every day. At his gate was laid a beggar named Lazarus, covered with sores and longing to eat what fell from the rich man’s table. Even the dogs came and licked his sores. The time came when the beggar died and the angels carried him to Abraham’s side. The rich man also died and was buried. In Hades, where he was in torment , he looked up and saw Abraham far away with Lazarus by his side . So he called to him, ‘Father Abraham, have pity on me and send Lazarus to dip the tip of his finger in water and cool my tongue, because I am in agony in this fire.’ But Abraham replied, ‘Son, remember that in your lifetime you received your good things, while Lazarus received bad things, but now he is comforted and you are in agony. And besides all this, between us and you a great chasm has been fixed, so that those who want to go from here to you cannot, nor can anyone cross over from there to us.’ He answered, ‘Then I beg you, father, send Lazarus to my father’s house, for I have five brothers. Let him warn them, so that they will not also come to this place of torment.’ Abraham replied, ‘They have Moses and the Prophets; let them listen to them.’ ” ‘No, father Abraham,’ he said, ‘but if someone from the dead goes to them, they will repent.’ He said to him, ‘If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.’ “

      So, from the story, we can see that it reveals that both men died and their bodies were buried, but their souls/spirits went to Hades. Now, at the time prior to Christ’s descending into the heart of the earth after his death, both the righteous and wicked, when they died, went to Hades, which as the story reveals, had two compartments that were divided by a great chasm. On one side, a place of torment in flame and on the other, a place of paradise. As we have seen, their bodies had died and were buried, but yet here we find their souls/spirits in Hades. They are consciousness just as when they were alive, having the ability to see, hear, feel, speak and reason. Also, when the rich man asks father Abraham to send Lazarus to his father’s house to warn his five brothers so that they would not come to the same place as him, Abraham says, “If they do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be convinced even if someone rises from the dead.”

      Basically, the rich man is asking father Abraham to have Lazarus resurrected in order to go and warn his his brothers to repent so that they will not come to the same place of torment that he is in.

      Now, for those of you who are still not convinced that after death the soul is still aware and conscious, there are many other proofs in the word of God to be presented. Take for example the following verses in Luke 23:39-42.

      One of the criminals who hung there hurled insults at him: ”Aren’t you the Christ? Save yourself and us!” But the other criminal rebuked him: ”Don’t you fear God,” he said, ” since you are under the same sentence? We are punished justly, for we are getting what our deeds deserve. But this man has done nothing wrong.” Then he said, “Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom.” Jesus answered him, ” I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise.”

      So, here we have one of the two theives that were crucified with Christ, having a repentent heart and asking Christ to remember him when he comes into His kingdom and Jesus says “today you will be with me in paradise.” How is that possible, if after we die we are in the grave and know nothing? We know for a fact that both the bodies of Jesus and the thief were dead before sunset because the sabbath was approaching and at the request of the religous leaders, the guards went out and broke their legs to hurry the process of death, except for Jesus who was already dead, which fulfilled the scriptures which say “Not a bone of his body shall broken.” Now, if as some say, that we know nothing once we are dead, that is, we have no consciousness, how is it that Jesus could make the promise to the thief that he would be with Him in paradise that very day, when we know that they both died and were buried? The answer again is that, their bodies were truely dead and buried upon the earth, but their souls/spirits were in paradise. Jesus’ reference to paradise was most likely in regards to the same place where Abraham and Lazarus were, which was seperated from the place where the rich man was in torment. What? Still not convinced? Then let’s go investigate so more of what the word of God has to reveal.

      Matthew 17:1-3 After six days Jesus took with him Peter, James and John the brother of James, and led them up a high mountain by themselves. There he was transfigured before them. His face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as the light. Just then there appeared before them Moses and Elijah talking with Jesus.

      Hey, It’s Moses and Elijah! What are you guys doing up? According to the Jehovah’s witnessess and others you’re supposed to be in your grave, unconscious, where you know nothing! Well, how about that! I can’t speak for Elijah because God took him like he did Enoch and so he never experienced physical death, but as for Moses, we know that he was buried by God personally and yet here he is speaking with Jesus.

      Here in the book of Revelation 6:9-10, John has been changed and caught up to heaven in the spirit and a mighty angel asks the following question:

      “And I saw a mighty angel proclaiming in a loud voice, ‘Who is worthy to break the seals and open the scroll?’ But no one in heaven, or on earth or [under the earth] could open the scroll or even look inside it.”

      Under the earth? If the person who dies knows nothing because they are in the grave and has no consciousness and are unaware, then why would the angel include those who are under the earth? It would be a moot point to include those who have no consciousness. What the angel is speaking about is in regards to those who are under the earth, that is, those whose souls are in Hades. Just as the rich man was buried and his body was decaying up on the earth, his soul was very much conscious and aware being in hades and in torment.

      I know! I know! There are still some who don’t believe, so lets go look at the next reference to those under the earth in Revelation 5:13:

      Then I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and [under the earth] and on the sea, and all that is in them, singing:

      “To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be praise and honor and glory and power, for ever and ever!”

      Huh! That’s pretty amazing that all those dead people under the earth, who know nothing in their graves and are unconscious, but are going to be singing at some future time. Again, those who are under the earth are those who died without faith, who are in the spirit and went to Hades, the same place as the rich man, where they are very much aware and are conscious of their existance. Getting tired of all this proof yet? I can just imagine all of the die-hards who will continue to claim that there is no awareness after death, trying to get rid of the existence of Hades and will be looking for ways to refute everything that I have listed here. Let’s move on to the next proof of scripture:

      Revelation 6:9 – 10 When he opened the fifth seal seal, I saw under the altar [the souls] of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?”

      This is pretty much self explanitory in that, the souls of those who have died are very much conscious and aware under the altar in heaven. The verse states that these people were killed for the word of God and for the testimony that they maintained, they are under the altar in heaven and they are speaking to the Lord and asking him how long it will be until he judges the inhabitants of the earth and avenges their blood and they are given white robes to wear. That’s a lot of activity for dead guys who know nothing.

      So just to recap, it is the body (flesh) that is unconscious and knows nothing and that because it has died and was buried and is decaying in the earth. On the other hand, for the person who dies in Christ, their soul/spirit goes to be in His presence at the time of death and they are very much conscious and aware. And for those who die who are not in Christ, their souls/spirits go into Hades and wait in torment just like the rich man in the story who was and is very aware and conscious of his existence .

      The soul and the spirit are connected, but separable. The soul is the essence of humanity’s being; it is who we are. The spirit is the aspect of humanity that connects with God. The body is the container for the soul and spirit.

      Yours in Christ – Don

  36. Hello Don,

    Thanks for sharing your in-depth study of the soul’s living state after death. I am in total agreement with you and I am in awe at the irrefutable facts presented in the Bible and yet ignored by some. I can agree to disagree on many issues, in my past and present profession I encounter different people and attitudes almost daily, no two persons are the same and each person have a unique way of viewing things in general. But when it comes to facts or the truth there is no grey area, if you are 99% right, you are 100% wrong, that’s the plain fact.

    I believe as time progresses in these days we would see more and more people, even those that fill up the church halls, turning away from the truth and clinging to whatever makes them peaceful in their own mind. I think outside of the Holy Spirit, no one has the power to discern biblical truths, there will always be strong though incorrect interpretations of scriptures that would be acceptable to most of the congregations because if they are not called to faith by God they would easily led astray. Look at how much facts and references you have presented (not opinions) yet it would be rejected! Like I said in a recent post there is a parallel doctrine of the devil alive in the churches today that is soooo similar to the bible that if it were possible even the elect would be fooled.

    We are indeed in the last days my friend and we should take every 24 hours that we have as a blessing from God and use as much of that time in prayerful thanks and supplication for His continued work in calling others to faith. My heart fills with joy with the knowledge that I was chosen from amongst millions or even billions of people to receive the gift of faith from God and to be a vessel for the Holy Spirit who teaches me about Jesus Christ my savior and brings me to repentance daily. It is ironic that God calls His chosen to faith, the devil cunningly deceives many and there are the atheists who believe in neither good or evil but not even worthy to be devotees of the devil. They pride themselves on their egos and opinions of naught and they don’t even understand that they are of no importance to the devil because their stupidity has made it hassle free for him to own them, what a waste!!!

    Regarding our on-going Eschatology discussions, when last I posted on this subject, the two witnesses came up for discussion. I submitted that they would have supernatural powers that when exercised would look a lot like the judgments that was experienced on the earth. I held the view that the last woe would cease for a while in order for the powers of the two witnesses to hold their own and be readily distinguishable from the judgments. I know from your post that you believe that the third woe would follow the second woe in immediate succession, our views are different so I await your thoughts on this issue.

    Rev 11:8-13, 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 And those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 11 And after the three and a half days the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were beholding them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them. 13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; and seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    It is interesting that the ascension of the two witnesses is seen by their enemies while the ascension of Christ was witnessed by His friends (Apostles). I believe this is further proof of these two witnesses’ testimonies would demonstrate that God keeps His own laws and they are just and true. Imagine the people of the day witnessed supernatural powers from men for the most part and yet they celebrate their death with a satanic christmas giving each other gifts. What a shame!!!

    I believe that the 3 1/2 days that their bodies laid on the ground is literal and through technology would be seen throughout the world probably on cable tv. These two witnesses would not be well received by the world of that day because of their powers, the world at that time would not be a very stable place and to add insult to injury these two add more calamities, so naturally they would be hated. Their powers would be that which is granted by God, the first half judgments were direct from God while these witnesses exist in the mid-trib period and God is working through them.

    Of interest also is exactly 7,000 people perishing in the great earthquake. 144,000 exactly were sealed, 12,000 from 12 tribes, 200 million strong army of angels. Who else could place things in such perfection that given values are achieved, GOD.

    We have spoken a lot about the two witnesses but have not mentioned who they might be. I think that they are two newly chosen men who are alive in the world today without knowledge of God’s purpose for them yet. I know that Elijah, Enoch and Moses are favored choices for the two witnesses, who do you believe they are? In my next post I’ll give my reasons why I think is two newly called servants.

    Looking forward to your thoughts on these issues.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Guday Wesley as an Ausie would say,

      Regarding the two witnesses, I am going to list all of the verses and then go down the line of what I believe for each subject.

      “I was given a reed like a measuring rod and was told, “Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the worshipers there. But exclude the outer court; do not measure it, because it has been given to the Gentiles. They will trample on the holy city for 42 months.”

      Scholars are pretty much in agreement that, the book of Revelation was written around 94-95 AD, which would put its writing after the destruction of the temple in AD 70. That being the case, John could not be measuring the second temple of Herod, as it would have been destroyed 15 years prior to John writing the book of Revelation. Also, we know that the temple that he is speaking of is upon the earth and not the heavenly one, because of the fact that the angel told him, not measure the outer court, because it has been given over to the Gentiles who will trample it for 42 months (3 1/2 years). Therefore, we must conclude from the word of God that, the vision of the temple that he is measuring is a future temple. Some might say that this temple is the millennial temple, but that would not fit the bill, because in Dan.9:27 and Matthew 24:15, Daniel and Jesus make mention of the abomination that the beast is to set up in the “Holy Place” which is of course is within the temple and we know that the beast will make his appearance seven years prior to Jesus returning to the earth and therefore, the temple that is being spoken of must be one that exists during the tribulaiton period, during the time of this antichrist.

      Now, in regards to the mention of the outer court being given to the Gentiles, I believe that this is in reference to the fact that currently, the muslims’ “dome of the rock” sits on the temple mount, but it has been determined by those who have been closely studying the “Holy of Holies” and its exact location, that the “dome of the rock,” though it is on the temple mount, does not rest on the site of the “Holy of Holies.” It may be that, when this antichrist comes and makes his peace agreement with “many” (Israel and Muslims), he will be the one who will make it possible for the Jews to rebuild their temple on the exact site of the Holy of Holies, which would put the dome of the rock in (you guessed it) within the outer court. There are two other interesting issues regarding the muslims and the Jews and that being, the muslims are and have been waiting for one to appear who is called the “Twelfth Imam” and the Jews are still waiting for their Messiah, so what do think is going to happen when this man shows up proclaiming himself to be the Christ and the twelfth Imam? He will be able to appease both sides so that they will be able to worship on the temple mount together. Remember, he is going to have a false prophet doing signs, miracles and wonders as proof of who he will be proclaiming to be, as well as suffering a fatal head wound and performing a mock resurrection.

      “And I will give power to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for 1,260 days, clothed in sackcloth.” These are the two olive tress and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. If anyone tries to harm them, fire comes from their mouths and devours their enemies. This is how anyone who wants to harm them must die. These men have power to shut up the sky so that it will not reain during the time the are prophecying; and they have power to turn the waters into blood and to strike the earth with every plague as often as they want.

      Now, the mention of the time of their prophecy being 1,260 days, again is the equal to 3 1/2 years. We know that the time period of the tribulation period is seven years in length according to Dan 9:27, which says:

      “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven’. In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

      This seven years will finish up the prophecy that was made to Daniel by the angel Gabriel of seventy ‘sevens, sixty nine of which were fulfilled when Christ was crucified as stated in Dan 9:25-26:

      “Know and understand this: From the issuing of the decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem until the Anointed One, the ruler, comes, there will be seven ‘sevens,’ and sixty-two ‘sevens.’ It will be rebuilt with streets and a trench, but in times of trouble. After the sixty-two ‘sevens,’ the Anointed one will be cut off and will have nothing.”

      I have gotten off-track a little and explained all this to establish that, this last seven year period is divided up into two individual 3 1/2 year periods. It is the antichrists making his coventant that initiates the beginning of the seven years up to the middle, which completes the first 3 1/2 years, at which point, the setting up of the abomination is the starting point of the second 3 1/2 period, with the Lord’s return bringing it to an end. That being said, I bid that the 3 1/2 years that the two witnesses carry out their time of prophecy, is from the beginning of the seven years up to the middle, that is, their time of prophecy will be during the first 3 1/2 year period and one of my reasons for this is found in the following verse:

      “Now when they have finished thier testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.”

      So, it is not until they have come to the end of their 3 1/2 years of prophey that they can be killed and this by the beast who comes up out of the Abyss. Just for the sake of argument, since it is said that, they cannot be killed until the end of the their 3 1/2 years of prophecy has been completed, this means that they are killed either in the middle of the seven year period or at the end, being that we have already established that the seven years is made up of two 3 1/2 year periods. Now, it also states that the beast will come up from the Abyss and will attack and kill them, which means that, he will come up out of the Abyss around the end of their 3 1/2 years, because it is stated that, no one will be kill them until that time has been accomplished. So, when does this beast come up out of the Abyss?

      “The fifth angel sounded his trumpet, and I saw a star that had fallen from the sky to the earth. The star was given the key to the shaft of the Abyss. When he [opened] the Abyss, smoke rose from it like the smoke from a gigantic furnace. The sun and sky were darkened by the smoke from the Abyss. And out of the smoke locusts came down upon the earth and were given power like that of scorpions of the earth.” (Rev.9:1-3)

      “They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek Apollyon.”

      At the sounding of the 5th trumpet, a fallen angel opens the Abyss and lets out those demonic beings that are commanded to torment the inhabitants of the earth with the stings like that of a scorpion (except for the 144,000) and they have a king over them who is the angel of the Abyss. I bid that, this is when the beast comes up out of the Abyss and attacks those two witnesses, because the Abyss is now opened and I am sure that once it has been opened, that this angel/beast will not waste any time coming out to attack them. That being said, that would put the 5th Trumpet as taking place in the middle of the seven years and therefore, the two withnesses being killed in the middle of the seven, which would mean that their time of prophecy would be from the beginning of the seven up to the middle.

      There are other reasons for making the time of their prophecy during the first 3 1/2 year period and that being, if we put the beginning of their prophecy from the middle of the seven when the abomination is set up until the end of the seven, that would put the timing of the beast coming up out of the Abyss and the killing the two witnesses at the end of the seven years when Christ returns and it would also mean that the 5th trumpet would be taking place at the end of the seven year period, which would leave no time for the rest of the trumpets and bowls to be completed. Also, remember that, at the middle of the seven, which starts the second 3 1/2 period, the abomination is set up in the Holy Place and this act causes the desolation of Jerusalem, which would mean that, the two witnesses would be there alone with no one in Jerusalem to witness to, since Israel (the woman) will be cared for out in the wilderness for 3 1/2 years.

      So to recap, I believe that the two witnesses will begin their time of prophecy from the beginning of the seven and will be killed by the beast that comes up out of the Abyss at the middle of the seven, which is at the same time that the abomination is set up in the temple.

      Now in regards to who these two witnesses are, first we see by the plagues that are mentioned that they perform, that they are reminiscent of the plagues performed by Elijah who shut up the sky so that it would not rain for 3 1/2 years (1 Kings 17:1; James 5:17) and of Moses who turned the Nile into blood (Exodus 7:17). Now, I have another reason for believing that the two witnesses are Elijah and Moses and that is, these are the same two who appeared with Jesus on the mountain when he was transfigured where Peter, James and John saw his glory, as previously prophecied by Jesus when he said, “I tell you the truth, there be some standing here who will not taste of death until they see the Son of Man coming in his glory.” But, after all is said and done, even with all that I have listed here, the fact is that, the names of these two witnesses are simply not revealed. But, for the reasons listed above, I lean towards these two men as being Moses and Elijah. In the case of Elijah, since he has never physically died, he would not need to be resurrected in order to be one of the two witnesses, on the other hand, Moses did die and God buried Moses himself and therefore, in order for Moses to be one of the witnesses, he would have to be resurrected only to die again, unless of course he appears on the earth in the same manner as when Peter, James and John saw him at the transfiguration of Jesus. Another popular belief as to who these two witnesses are is Elijah and Enoch, since both have never phyically died. We just can’t know for sure the identity of these two men.

      How terrified the people of the earth are going to be, who will have been partying and sending each other gifts and gloating over the death of these two men who have been laying in the streets of Jerusalem for 3 1/2 days unburied, when they see them stand up and take off into heaven. But, after the earthquake and the death of 7000, God does get the desired response in that, the survivors will give glory to God. By the way, I don’t believe that the activity of the two witnesses is part of the second woe, because the woes are sequencial in order and the description of the two witnesses starts at the beginning of the seven year period, which would put the second woe covering the entire first 3 1/2 years, essentually starting at the same time as the 1st Seal and before all the trumpets. So, I believe that the mention of the two witnesses is part of the parenthetic pause that I mentioned, that is, what is written of them is informational about what they will be doing during that first 3 1/2 years and how they are to be killed .

      Sheesh! I’m tired after that post. As always, I look foreward to your input regarding these issues.

      Yours in Christ – Don

  37. Put another shrimp on the barbie mate,

    Well my friend as always you have presented another well researched and documented post to support your beliefs. I think that we are fast approaching or maybe already at a critical point in our understanding of God’s plan for the end of the age. As always I know that you would join me in giving all the glory to God for His calling of us to study and share His word through Christ Jesus. Amen.

    Revelations at times seem to jump from one scene to a completely different one but there is a thread there and we are humbled by the leading of the Holy Spirit to discern the truth. Often we feel obligated to accept opinions of scholars and fail to recognize that we may see something that they have missed or misinterpreted. We must always be humbled though about these truths because it is a leading by the Holy Spirit. With that being said, I am of the view that Chapter 11 is probably the most controversial and difficult one to understand. Choosing where to place the events – early trib, mid-trib or later trib would influence our understanding of the entire book of revelations.

    At mid-trib we are at the point where the second woe has passed or the last of the trumpet judgments before we enter into the last 31/2 year period.

    Rev 11:1-2
    11 And there was given me a measuring rod like a staff; and someone said, “Rise and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and those who worship in it. 2 “And leave out the court which is outside the temple, and do not measure it, for it has been given to the nations; and they will tread under foot the holy city for forty-two months.

    The main points of these verses are:
    1. It is an operating temple with the fact that there is an “altar”.
    2. A specific time period “42 months” is given therefore the events of this chapter are either pre-trib leading into mid-trib or mid-trib heading into later trib.
    3. There are 4 temples recorded; Solomon’s, Herod’s (which are destroyed), the third temple (that would be desolated) and the Messianic temple (Jesus’ temple).
    We must therefore have a functioning temple in order that the abomination of desolation take place. I share your view that the holy of holies is free for the building of the third temple, and the holy city will be desecrated by the gentiles (thread underfoot), the Jews therefore would not have full control of the entire temple or the holy city and would not have total control until Christ comes to set up the millennial kingdom. Zech 2:8-13, 8 For thus says the Lord of hosts, “After glory He has sent me against the nations which plunder you, for he who touches you, touches the apple of His eye. 9 “For behold, I will wave My hand over them, so that they will be plunder for their slaves. Then you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me. 10 “Sing for joy and be glad, O daughter of Zion; for behold I am coming and I will dwell in your midst,” declares the Lord. 11 “And many nations will join themselves to the Lord in that day and will become My people. Then I will dwell in your midst, and you will know that the Lord of hosts has sent Me to you. 12 “And the Lord will possess Judah as His portion in the holy land, and will again choose Jerusalem. 13 “Be silent, all flesh, before the Lord; for He is aroused from His holy habitation.”

    Even in the middle east today a flagrant sign of disrespect is to show someone the underneath of your feet, remember when Saddam Hussein was killed how the people were standing on his head and face.

    Rev 11:3-7
    3 “And I will grant authority to my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for twelve hundred and sixty days, clothed in sackcloth.” 4 These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands that stand before the Lord of the earth. 5 And if anyone desires to harm them, fire proceeds out of their mouth and devours their enemies; and if anyone would desire to harm them, in this manner he must be killed. 6 These have the power to shut up the sky, in order that rain may not fall during the days of their prophesying; and they have power over the waters to turn them into blood, and to smite the earth with every plague, as often as they desire. 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them.

    Here we have a mid-trib period 1260 days, is there a leading into as would a parenthetic chapter dictate or is this a prophetic look into the later trib period? To find the answer we must discover what the purpose of these two witnesses are, Deut 19:15, 15 “A single witness shall not rise up against a man on account of any iniquity or any sin which he has committed; on the evidence of two or three witnesses a matter shall be confirmed.” This defines the requirements of the law concerning witnesses. We already have the 144,000 evangelizing in the world in the first 3/12 year period, would two more serve a major role as evangelists? I think that they may do some evangelizing but their main role is to bring the world to judgment from being witnesses against humanity for their sins against God. Zech 4:11-14, 11 Then I answered and said to him, “What are these two olive trees on the right of the lampstand and on its left?” 12 And I answered the second time and said to him, “What are the two olive branches which are beside the two golden pipes, which empty the golden oil from themselves?” 13 So he answered me saying, “Do you not know what these are?” And I said, “No, my lord.” 14 Then he said, “These are the two anointed ones, who are standing by the Lord of the whole earth.”

    Chapters 1-3 of Zech basically gives a description of the Jews returning to the nation of Israel and the temple being rebuilt, these lead into the two olive branches or the two witnesses who would be Jewish . I wager that the ministry of the two witnesses are already ongoing in the world at that time by the execution of the law and they would come on the scene to be witnesses against the world as well as the Jews who breaks the law.

    Let’s look at potentials for the role of the two witnesses:

    Enoch, Gen 5:22-24, 22 Then Enoch walked with God three hundred years after he became the father of Methuselah, and he had other sons and daughters. 23 So all the days of Enoch were three hundred and sixty-five years. 24 And Enoch walked with God; and he was not, for God took him.

    We can safely say that Enoch did not die, and he walked with God, but how can he stand in God’s presence. Paul says to absent from the body is to be present with the Lord. This body we have is corruptible and must be changed before we stand in God’s presence, it does not mean a person has to die because we have the rapture teaching us that those who are alive would be transformed. I have given this precursor because many believe that Enoch did not die and must return to die which is in fact not a necessity to be in God’s presence.

    Let’s look at Elijah:
    Isa 40:3, 3 A voice is calling, “Clear the way for the Lord in the wilderness; Make smooth in the desert a highway for our God.
    this was fulfilled by John the Baptist; Matt 3:1-3, 3 Now in those days John the Baptist came, preaching in the wilderness of Judea, saying, 2 “Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.” 3 For this is the one referred to by Isaiah the prophet, saying,”The voice of one crying in the wilderness, ‘Make ready the way of the Lord, Make His paths straight!'” John was a picture of Elijah heralding the coming of the Messiah.

    Mal 4:5, 5 “Behold, I am going to send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and terrible day of the Lord.” The great and terrible day of the Lord is the 7year period of tribulation. Elijah is therefore preceding tribulation “not” the second coming of Christ. His role therefore is in a time of revival or people returning to faith and not as a one of the two witness against the law breakers, Mal 4:6, 6 “And he will restore the hearts of the fathers to their children, and the hearts of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the land with a curse.”

    Let’s look at Moses:
    Scripture tells us that Lazarus was resurrected from the dead and he died again, so if Moses was to face a similar faith it would be no biggie I guess. We also have both Moses and Elijah standing next to Christ at the transfiguration but is that proof enough that they would fill the role of the two witnesses? Moses being the law giver would make him ideal since the role of the witnesses is to testify against law breakers. Is there biblical evidence that state literally that having this background is a pre-requisite to being a witness to come?

    The ministry of these witnesses is not founded on their notoriety, fame or previous calling, it is specific to the power of God working through them. Does that mean that we can omit Enoch, Elijah or Moses? No, I don’t think that we can or should. I believe however that two strangers to our knowledge of biblical characters fill the role of witnesses better. It is in God’s hands and we can rest assured the decision could not be in a better place.

    To recap; we have seal and trumpet judgments including two of the three woes coming to fruition up to the mid trib period and the functioning temple and the holy city being trampled underfoot for 42 months. I believe these are both pre-trib and later trib events respectively. We have the two witnesses on the scene ready to testify against the law breakers, but in which period do we place them, first 31/2 year or second 31/2 year?

    We know that their ministry would not be cut short, it would be fulfilled. Rev 11:7-13, 7 And when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up out of the abyss will make war with them, and overcome them and kill them. 8 And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified. 9 And those from the peoples and tribes and tongues and nations will look at their dead bodies for three and a half days, and will not permit their dead bodies to be laid in a tomb. 10 And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them and make merry; and they will send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth. 11 And after the three and a half days the breath of life from God came into them, and they stood on their feet; and great fear fell upon those who were beholding them. 12 And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them, “Come up here.” And they went up into heaven in the cloud, and their enemies beheld them. 13 And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell; and seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.

    The beast (antichrist) would destroy them and following that “And in that hour there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city (Jerusalem-as referenced by the great city which mystically is called Sodom and Egypt) fell; remember that the holy city was being trampled underfoot during the latter part of tribulation or the second 31/2 year period. To prove that God was present in the fall of the great city was the specific death of “seven thousand people were killed in the earthquake, and the rest were terrified and gave glory to the God of heaven.” But this does not mean that the two witnesses died in the second half of tribulation because we have people celebrating their death. The second half of tribulation ends with Christ’s return not people celebrating the death of witnesses whose purpose was to testify against law breakers.

    Whew! you thought your post was long? Looking forward to your views and we’ll conclude chapter 11 God willing.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hi Wesley,

      It is 3:30 am and I am here at work as usual. I only have one more day of work (Saturday) before I go on my vacation to Puerto Rico. I hope that there is a lot of sun and surf when I get there. I know that that the new earth will be beautiful, but it seems kind of hard to imagine an earth without oceans or sun and moon for that matter.

      So basically, what we arrived at regarding the two witnesses is that, we can do spiritual speculation based on the information that we have, but we cannot with certainty, identify who they will be, simply because their names are never revealed. And in regards to what the time of their prophecy and death would be, I lean towards their prophecy starting at the beginning of the seven and being killed in the middle of the seven, but I wasn’t sure which 3 1/2 period that you put them in? I also believe that chapter 10 and 11 are parenthetic pauses, meaning that, they cause a pause from the readers standpoint, but does not interrupt the action that is taking place on the earth. I was saying that, the information that was given regarding the two witnesses, was information of another event that is also going to be taking place during the seals and trumpets. The fire that comes from their mouths to devour their enemies, I believe is literal fire, as there is nothing in the verse that would suggest symbolism.

      “The seventh angel sounded his trumpet, and there were loud voices in heaven, which said:”

      “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdome of our Lord and of his Christ, and he will reign for ever and ever.”

      “And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God saying:”

      “We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry; and your wrath has come. The time has come for judging the dead, and for rewarding your servants the prophets and your saints and those who reverence your name, both small and great– and for destroying those who destroy the earth.”

      First, the designation of “the one who is and who was” speaks of God’s eternal state, having no beginning or ending. The statement “your wrath has come” was also proclaimed at the end of the 6th Seal which says:

      “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the [wrath] of the Lamb! For the great day of their [wrath] has come and who can stand?”

      I don’t believe that when the announcement is made, that it is inferring that his wrath is about to happen, but rather that, it has been happening and is on-going, as the mention of his wrath is found both here in the 6th Seal and is also proclaimed at the sounding of the 7th Trumpet. It is also announced prior to the bowl judgments being poured and in fact they are referred to as “the seven bowls of God’s wrath.” Therefore, if anyone had question as to whether or not the Seals, trumpets and Bowls could be designated as being the wrath of God, we can see from these verses that, the phrase “wrath of God” is used to describe each set of seven judgements. This is one of the reasons that supports a pre-tribulation resurrection and catching away of the church, simply because Paul stated that “God did not appoint us to suffer wrath” and he also stated that “Jesus rescues us from the wrath to come.” As mentioned in a previous post, Paul outlined two phases regarding the “day of the Lord.” The first phase is the resurrection and catching away, followed by the wrath of God (see I Thes.4:13 Through I Thes 5:1-11). In any case, I believe that we can see that, the wrath of God is dispersed in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowls and comes to its completion when Christ slays all of those kings, generals, their armies and all the evil and unfaiful people (one taken) that the angels will bring to that location (Mt.13:24-30; 37-43).

      Now regarding the verse “The time has come for judging the dead,” this is being said at the sounding of the seventh trumpet and therefore, we know that there are still seven bowl judgments which follow. We also know that, the time for judging the dead will not be until the end of the thousand reign of Christ on earth, where all the lost dead are resurrected from Hades and will stand before God at the great white throne judgment.

      “Then God’s temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant. And there came flashes of lightning, rumlings, peals of thunder, and earthquake and a great hail storm.”

      It appears from the verse above that, the “Ark of the covenant” that used to reside in the “Holy of Holies” in the temple in Jerusalem, must have been modeled after the Ark that is in the temple in heaven. And here, just as in Rev.8:5, we have the flashes of lightning, rumblings, and peals of thunder, except that hail is included here.

      This just finishes off Chapter 11 and we can continue with Chapter 12 and the 3rd Woe in the next posting. It is good for us to be going over and over the truth of God’s word, as it just makes us dig deeper into the truth and even learn new information. I look forward to your next post. Have a great day!

      Yours in Christ – Don

  38. Hello My Friend,

    3:30a.m. wow! For a while now I wake between the hours of 2:00 a.m. and 4:00a.m. routinely and as I awake the first thing I want to do is pray. A simple pray of thanks to God for His many blessings He has so graciously bestowed on His humble servant and my family. Isn’t that something? God is great my friend!!!

    I too believe from the teachings and leanings of scriptures that the two witnesses would be in the first 31/2 years of tribulations. As I said before, chapter 11 of revelations is “probably the most controversial and difficult one to understand,” it is truly a clever piece of writing that overlaps, gives events that happen in the latter part of tribulations and then later bring the reader back to first half events, it overlaps the other chapters while they give a thread leading into later chapters. It is absolutely remarkable, truly I am in awe of God’s superior intelligence.

    Rev 11:14-18
    14 The second woe is past; behold, the third woe is coming quickly. 15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, 17 saying, “We give Thee thanks, O Lord God, the Almighty, who art and who wast, because Thou hast taken Thy great power and hast begun to reign. 18 “And the nations were enraged, and Thy wrath came, and the time came for the dead to be judged, and the time to give their reward to Thy bond-servants the prophets and to the saints and to those who fear Thy name, the small and the great, and to destroy those who destroy the earth.”

    Added to what you have said (which I am in agreement with) I view these last verses as the latter 31/2 year period of tribulation. It is like watching a television series and at the end of the episode there is a preview to the next episode.

    A key verse is “14 The second woe is past; behold, the third woe is coming quickly.” The third woe (the last trumpet) is the seven bowl judgments which at its end would herald Christ return, but we still have 8 chapters to go before this is captured by John. John is being shown by God the things of revelations, some of these things are in the future and beyond even our present age, we have John’s record of what he has seen to discern through the Holy Spirit as our guide.

    Chapters 12, 13, 14, 15 and 17 details things that happen before the bowl judgments while 16 describes the judgments themselves. The time in focus is mid-trib and it’s leanings are into great trib or the latter 31/2 year period. Let’s look at chapter 12 verse by verse and discover their mysteries.

    Rev 12:1-2
    12 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

    What is John seeing in heaven? It is a “great sign” and therefore it is not literal, it is therefore symbolic and the woman described is not a literal woman. So all those who have mistakingly believed that this is Mary are sadly misled and need to get back to the truth. Another convuluted view is that the woman is the church

  39. Yikes! hit the submit comment button by mistake…
    Rev 12:1-2
    12 And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

    What is John seeing in heaven? It is a “great sign” and therefore it is not literal, it is therefore symbolic and the woman described is not a literal woman. So all those who have mistakingly believed that this is Mary are sadly misled and need to get back to the truth. Another convuluted view is that the woman is the church which cannot be substantiated anywhere in the bible. Then, who does this represent? I wager it is Israel and the child is Israel’s most notable birth – Jesus. Whoa! whoa! hold the phone! I’m getting a feeling of deja-vu, isn’t this where this blog got started? Ahem, well let’s agree to disagree on who the child is, shall we? Although I firmly believe it is Christ. But Christ was born before tribulation, so are we then looking at a different time entirely to the tribulation period? Yes! that is exactly why at the end of chapter 11 we are given a snapshot or a preview into what is upcoming and then he takes us back in time to the point where we are reminded of the basis of the age old war between good and evil. Gen 3:15, 15 And I will put enmity, Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” This verse best summarizes the sin of the garden that started the whole thing.

    Rev 12:3-6
    3 And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

    What we have detailed in verses 3-5 here is the culmination of Gen 3: 15 to this point in God’s plan for the redemption of man to Himself. We know that Christ would be put to death and the devil would deceivingly think he won but it is merely a bruise on the heel. The devil, however is going to receive a fatal wound. “He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” There is however some contention about “And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.” This has been regarded as the persecution of the sealed 144,000 but it is not applicable because we are being shown the history behind the enmity between God and the devil. Actually this particular portion of the verse is described in Matt 2:16-17, 16 Then when Herod saw that he had been tricked by the magi, he became very enraged, and sent and slew all the male children who were in Bethlehem and in all its environs, from two years old and under, according to the time which he had ascertained from the magi. Here we see Herod being used by the enemy of Christ to kill the Messiah without success because this was not God’s plan.

    Rev 12:6
    6 And the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she might be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

    This verse drops us back into tribulation and we are armed with a renewed understanding of how we arrived at this point from verses 1-5 of chapter 12. The woman as we already know is Israel and something major is about to happen at mid-trib that would carry the readers to the fulfillment of prophesies. When we next continue we need to look at:
    1. Who is fleeing?
    2. Where are they fleeing to?
    3. What’s God doing during the course of these events?
    4. Why are these things taking place at mid-trb?

    What are your thoughts on these issues? I look forward to your views. As always praise and glory to our Father-God through Christ who redeemed us by His death and resurrection. Amen

    In grace,

    Wes

    • Hello Wesley,

      Hope you and your family are doing well. Sorry for the late reply, as I was running around yesterday doing last minute things for my trip to Puerto Rico. I am just taking board shorts, walking shorts and T-shirts on this trip. I will have couple of pair of Levi’s because I will have 4 hour layover in Newark NJ and I don’t think that it will be very warm there. It has been raining here for the last 4 days, but we need it out here in the desert. Now, regards to chapter 12 and the third woe:

      Yes, this is dejavu, since this is where we came in. I have been going over the information for the 144,000 and the male child and I still believe that the male child is representing the 144,00 collectively. The male child is “male” and the 144,000 are all male, as the word of God reveals in Rev.14:4:

      ” These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure.”

      Now, when it says “who did not defile themselves with women,” I believe that this is in reference to them not being sexually immoral and not because they did not marry, because a man or a woman does not defile themselves if they are a married couple, as Paul says “the marriage bed is undefiled.” In any case, both are mentioned as male. Also, Jesus does not fit the description, because God’s word says:

      “The dragon stood in front of the woman who was about to give birth, so that he might devour her child the moment it was born. She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will frule all the nations with an iron scepter. And her child was “snatched up” to God and to his throne.”

      I know that I am going over the same information, but bear with me. The dragon, who is identified as “Satan” in the following verses, is standing before the woman (Israel) waiting to devour her child the moment it is born, but as we see from the verse, as soon as the male child is born, it is “snatched up” to God and his throne. So, before Satan can do anything to the male child he is caught up to heaven, where as Jesus was crucified and therefore, he would not fit the description. In keeping with the description, Jesus would have been devoured, so to speak, that is, he didn’t escape the dragon. Also, it is said that the male child was “snatched up” to God and his throne. The words “snatched up” is the Greek word “Harpazo,” which denotes “force suddenly exercised.” This is the same word used to describe those who are still alive in 1 Thes.4:16 who are changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and caught up to meet those who were previously resurrected in the clouds. It is also the same word used to describe Phillip when it says the Spirit of the Lord “caught away” Phillip and the eunuch did not see him again. It is also the same word used when Paul said that he was “caught up” to the third heaven. My point is that, the male child is “caught up” to God and his thone, which means that as soon as it is born, it will be changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye just as in the description of those of the church who will be “caught up.” In other words, the male child does not die, but is changed and caught up to God’s throne. Jesus would also not fit this scenario, for he was not caught up, but was crucified and then resurrected. Also, I might add, we are always assuming that these 144,000 are evangalizing the world, but in actuality we only know that they are referred to as “servants” of God and that following their sealing we have the introduction of the white robed saints that come out of the great tribulation. So, we don’t really have anywhere where it actually states that these 144,000 are evangalizing. They may be in fact evangelizing the world, this is just an observation.

      We know that the woman is “Israel” as identified by Jacob in Gen.37:9-10, (even though many people ignore that and try to make the woman the church). The mention of the dragon and him sweeping a third of stars out of the sky and flinging them to the earth is a summarization of verse 7 on. In other words, the war in heaven staring at verse 7 is the detailed account of the mention of them being flung to the earth. It seems that Rev.12:1-6 is a summarization and from Rev.7 on is a detailed account of Rev.12:1-6.

      Now regarding the 3rd woe, I believe that as I stated in my original post that, the reason that the “Woes” are designated as such is because they are all demonic in nature. In the
      1st woe you have demonic beings being let out of the Abyss to torment the inhabitants of the earth for five months. In the 2nd woe we have four evil angels gathing together an army of
      200 million demonic beings from the Abyss to kill a third of mankind and here in the 3rd woe, which is I believe is indicated by the phrase “but woe to the earth and the sea becasue the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.” So, we have Satan and his angels being thrown down and restricted to the earth for that last
      3 1/2 years, which is why he knows that his “time is short” and this is where he through the beast, he makes war and conquers the saints for that last 3 1/2 years. I do not believe that the bowl judgments are part of the 3rd woe, but are seperate as the next and last set of seven judgments.

      So just to recap, I am leaning towards that the male child and the 144,000 are synonymous and that the 3rd woe is Satan and his angels being cast down and restricted to the earth as identified by the verse “But woe to the earth and the sea.” The 3rd woe would be the persecution of the tribulation saints and their being beheaded as seen in Rev.20:4. I guess we have differences of opinion regarding these issues and that is fine, as we are left to continue unraveling the mysteries which are hidden in plain sight and as we continue to study and look for the answers, God will bless us, revealing them. Bye the way, here are my answers to your four questions.

      1. Who is fleeing?

      Answer: I believe that we are in agreement that, it is the woman who is said to be fleeing into the wilderness and the woman was identified by Jacob in Gen.37:9-10 as being the nation Israel. I also believe that their fleeing is the desolation caused by that abomination being set up.

      2. Where are they fleeing to?

      Answer: God’s word says that they flee out into the mountains of Judea found in Mt.24:16 and Rev.12:6 says that she flees into into the desert to a place prepared for her by God where she is taken care of for a time, times and half a time (3 1/2 years). Some have claimed that she is cared for at Petra, but we simply don’t know exactly where she is cared for, as the location is just not specified.

      3. What’s God doing during the course of these events?

      Answer: God is still pouring out his judgments upon the earth, while Israel is fleeing to her place of safety and the beast is conquering and making war against the saints.

      4. Why are these things taking place at mid-trb?

      Answer: The only reason that I know for these things taking place at mid-trib is because it has to do with God’s timing, as there are many things happening at this point. You have the abomination that causes the desolation being set up, the beast comes up out of the Abyss and kills the two witnesses, Satan and his angels cast down and restricted to the earth and the mark of the beast becoming manditory.

      Well my friend and brother in Christ, we probably have one more post before I leave for my vacation on Sunday. I will be at work on Saturday for my 12 hour shift, so if you post I will have that time to respond and then it will be 10 days before I post again, since I am not taking my laptop with me. Hope to hear from you soon.

      In His grace

  40. Greetings DON,

    Just a short note to wish GOD’S blessings to you on your well deserved vacation. I’m going to take the next 10-12 days God willing to review all that we’ve posted so far. I think that the issue of the 144,000 as well as other activities taking place at mid-trib are very important and we must endeavor to get it right.

    Till we meet here again enjoy the sun, sea and surf my friend.

    In grace,

    Wesley

    • Hello Wesley! I hope that all is well with you and your family. I am back from my vacation now. I had previously this morning written a good size response and I some how the cursor moved over something and I completely lost the entire comment, so all that time was wasted and I can not duplicate all that I said. So, if you could please reply from my response prior to my leaving for vacation. Talk to you soon.

      Yours in Christ

  41. Hello Don, welcome back my brother in Christ. I missed our ongoing discussions particularly the point which we reached. Sorry you lost the info but I’m sure that you will be inspired by the Holy Spirit who teaches us of the Saviour to rewrite what was lost.

    Chapter 12 I am contending is a brief review of why the world has reached to this point in its history. Since the history of the world was written before creation it can be said that God the supreme creator has a plan which Satan could never comprehend, evidence of this can be seen from the very first book – Genesis;

    Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head,
    And you shall bruise him on the heel.”

    Gen 4:6-7 And Jehovah saith unto Cain, ‘Why hast thou displeasure? and why hath thy countenance fallen? 7 Is there not, if thou dost well, acceptance? and if thou dost not well, at the opening a sin-offering is crouching, and unto thee its desire, and thou rulest over it.’

    God has declared the demise of the devil by Jesus (Gen 3:15) and signalled to Cain as well as the future nation of Israel and all gentile nations that a ‘sin-offering’ which later was revealed as God’s only begotten Son, Jesus. John 3:16-18 “For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish, but have eternal life. 17 “For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through Him.

    But before we proceed any futher let’s examine my belief in chapter 12 being in part, a look at the past. At the end of chapter 11, Rev 11:14, The second woe is past; behold, the third woe is coming quickly. This is an abrupt end to a series of seal judgments, six trumpet judgments including two woe judgments. Then the very next verse takes us to events taking place in chapter 19; Rev 11:15-16 And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God.

    This brings us back to chapter 12, in which we both agree that the woman is the nation of Israel but disagree with who or whom the male child is. You have contended that the male child is the 144,000 sealed as described earlier in Rev 7:3-4, saying, “Do not harm the earth or the sea or the trees, until we have sealed the bond-servants of our God on their foreheads.” 4 And I heard the number of those who were sealed, one hundred and forty-four thousand sealed from every tribe of the sons of Israel. In your post you explained that the male child was “snatched up” reminiscent of the church being “caught up” as detailed in; 1 Thess 4:17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and thus we shall always be with the Lord.

    While I can relate to why you hold the view of the male child being the 144,000, I submit the following for your consideration and discernment:

    Rev 12:5-6, And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne.

    Ps 2:9, ‘Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron,Thou shalt shatter them like earthenware.’

    Rev 2:27,and he shall rule them with a rod of iron, as the vessels of the potter are broken to pieces, as I also have received authority from My Father;

    Rev 19:15 And from His mouth comes a sharp sword, so that with it He may smite the nations; and He will rule them with a rod of iron; and He treads the wine press of the fierce wrath of God, the Almighty.

    All the verses above clearly shows that “He” who shall rule with a rod of iron is non-other than Christ.

    Where you have contended that the child was snatched up or caught up we must look at Rev 12:2-4, and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. 3 And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child.

    The bible tells us that in history of the child’s life being under threat of destruction when Herod, used as an instrument of the devil, Matt 2:13,Now when they had departed, behold, an angel of the Lord appeared to Joseph in a dream, saying, “Arise and take the Child and His mother, and flee to Egypt, and remain there until I tell you; for Herod is going to search for the Child to destroy Him.
    But this was not God’s plan, God’s predestined plan was to have Jesus be the living sacrifice through death (crucifixion), resurrection (hope of Christians), ascension to heaven (as high priest) and return (as the king of kings) to rule with a rod of iron when all shall be put under His feet, Ps 2:7-9 “I will surely tell of the decree of the Lord:He said to Me, ‘Thou art My Son, Today I have begotten Thee. 8 ‘Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Thine inheritance, And the very ends of the earth as Thy possession. 9 ‘Thou shalt break them with a rod of iron, Thou shalt shatter them like earthenware.'”

    The 144,000 are not entitled to this future inheritance and therefore cannot be the male child. As for their role in evangelizing although it was not explicitly said that this was their appointed task, we must look at the sealing which made them effectively bond servants. The bond servants denoted in the bible all had the responsibility of evangelizing;
    Acts 4:29-31 “And now, Lord, take note of their threats, and grant that Thy bond-servants may speak Thy word with all confidence, 30 while Thou dost extend Thy hand to heal, and signs and wonders take place through the name of Thy holy servant Jesus.” 31 And when they had prayed, the place where they had gathered together was shaken, and they were all filled with the Holy Spirit, and began to speak the word of God with boldness.

    Acts 16:17-18, Following after Paul and us, she kept crying out, saying, “These men are bond-servants of the Most High God, who are proclaiming to you the way of salvation.”

    2 Cor 4:5,For we do not preach ourselves but Christ Jesus as Lord, and ourselves as your bond-servants for Jesus’ sake.

    Regarding the 3rd woe, I wager that this is in fact the bowl judgments from the fact that chapter 12 gives us a history of why the world has reached this point and the jump (Rev 11:14) to (Rev 19:15). I believe this is telling the reader that God is left with one more “button” to push which is the bowl judgments. All opportunity for salvation has gone at the point of the 3rd woe, it is the last thing has to do and He is going to do so with the bowl judgments.

    Regarding the following questions:
    1. Who is fleeing?
    2. Where are they fleeing to?
    3. What’s God doing during the course of these events?
    4. Why are these things taking place at mid-trb?

    1. It is the nation of Israel that remain to witness the abomination of desolation.
    2. They are in fact fleeing to Petra. The ancient name for Petra is Bozrah. Allow me to develop the mystery that is Petra/Bozrah::
    :
    Isa 33:13-16
    “You who are far away, hear what I have done; And you who are near, acknowledge My might.” 14 Sinners in Zion are terrified;
    Trembling has seized the godless.”Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?”
    15 He who walks righteously, and speaks with sincerity,
    He who rejects unjust gain, And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe; He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed,
    And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil; 16 He will dwell on the heights; His refuge will be the impregnable rock; His bread will be given him; His water will be sure.

    These are sinners in Zion who fear that they have no chance for survival, God says,”He will dwell on the heights; His refuge will be the impregnable rock; His bread will be given him; His water will be sure.”

    Matt 24:15-18, “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains; 17 let him who is on the housetop not go down to get the things out that are in his house; 18 and let him who is in the field not turn back to get his cloak.

    For the believer in that day a way out will be provided, Christ expresses the urgency of their exodus to a safe place that God has prepared. Much like those who discerned the Olivet Discourse prior to AD 70 and fled before the destruction of Jerusalem so too it would be on that day. It is a test of faith for the nation of Israel to flee and those who flee would be saved.

    Let’s look at the place called Petra as the safe haven. Petra is the modern name for Bozrah, for information on this haven let’s go to:

    Mic 2:12-13 “I will surely assemble all of you, Jacob, I will surely gather the remnant of Israel. I will put them together like sheep in the fold; Like a flock in the midst of its pasture They will be noisy with men. 13 “The breaker goes up before them; They break out, pass through the gate, and go out by it. So their king goes on before them, And the Lord at their head.”

    The word Bozrah is expressed in ‘sheep in the fold’ which in Hebrew sheep pen is bozrah. The enigma is that Hebrew has no capital letters so a location such as bozrah is sheep pen which is the same as Bozrah (Petra). The other verse that cements this being the place we look to Dan 11:41 “He will also enter the Beautiful Land, and many countries will fall; but these will be rescued out of his hand: Edom, Moab and the foremost of the sons of Ammon.

    The one place that the Antichrist does not gain control over is described in Micah and if you look at a map you’ll find that Bozrah is located in this area.

    It’s a clever way of concealing the safe haven for the believers in the nation of Israel. God will ensure that the devil shall not gain control of this place and on that we must rely.

    3. So we have the nation of Israel being nourished for 1,260 days or 3 1/2 years, satan and his imps being cast out of heaven by Michael and the arch angels and the bowl judgments being poured out or the 3rd woe taking place according to God’s will and purpose even unto the granting of authority to the devil Rev 12:15-16, And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood.’ As mentioned earlier God will be protecting the nation all the while.

    4. These are mid trib events because it marks an end to grace for gentiles and unbelieving Jews. The next 3 1/2 years are destined for the saving of believing Jews as well as the bowl judgments.

    Looking forward to your comments.

    In grace and glory to God through Christ Jesus.

    Wes

    • Hi Wesley, good to hear back from you. Yes, I lost all that I had written, but I will start by responding to the following:

      You wrote:
      “But before we proceed any futher let’s examine my belief in chapter 12 being in part, a look at the past. At the end of chapter 11, Rev 11:14, The second woe is past; behold, the third woe is coming quickly. This is an abrupt end to a series of seal judgments, six trumpet judgments including two woe judgments. Then the very next verse takes us to events taking place in chapter 19; Rev 11:15-16 And the seventh angel sounded; and there arose loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdom of the world has become the kingdom of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He will reign forever and ever.” 16 And the twenty-four elders, who sit on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God.

      Response:
      I am not sure if I agree that Rev 11:15-19 is a flash-forward to Rev 19 since it begins with the blowing of the 7th trumpet. Wouldn’t that put Christ’s return at the blowing of the 7th trumpet? Yet, there are seven bowl judgments still to come to complete the seven sets of judgments as announced with the 7th bowl judgment:

      “The seveth angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the thone, saying, ‘It is done!’ Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and severe earthquake.

      The phrase, “It is done!” would infer that the seventh bowl judgment brings and end to the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments of God and now Jesus is ready to return to set up his millennial kingdom.

      Regarding the male child and the 144,000, my reason for believing that the male child does not represent Jesus is because, in the text, the dragon is waiting to devour the male child as soon as it is born, but the male child escapes because he is “snatched up” to God and his throne, that is, he does not die, but is caught up or snatched away as the word “harpazo” describes. Though Jesus does escape Herod as a child, he does not escape the crucifixtion, which was of course God’s plan. When it says that the male child was “caught up” to God’s throne, it means that he got away before the dragon could get him without any harm. Also, as I stated, Jesus was crucified and then resurrected and not snatched up. The word “harpazo” meaning to be snatched up or force suddenly exercised, infers escaping, just as the church escapes the tribulation period when they are snatched up. Because Jesus was killed, he would not fit the description of the male child.

      Also, Regarding the phrase “Ruling the nations with an iron scepter,” this is specified for 3 groups as can be seen below:

      Promise to Overcomers: (Rev 2:27)
      “To him who overcomes and does my will to the end, I will give authority over the nations — He will rule them with an iron scepter; he will dash them to pieces like pottery.”

      The Male Child: (Rev 12:5)
      “She gave birth to a son, a male child, who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”

      Said of Jesus: (Rev 19:15)
      Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with and iron scepter.”

      So, we can see here that, this designation is not only in regards to Jesus.

      A couple of things, first, as I stated in an earlier post, I believe that the woes are designated as such because they are all three demonic in nature.

      1. 5th Trumpet/1st Woe:
      Demonic beings released from the Abyss to torment mankind for five months, except for the 144,000 who were sealed with the seal of God in their foreheads in Rev 7.

      2. 6th Trumpet/2nd Woe:
      The four evil angels bound at the great river Eurphrates are released and go and gather an army of 200 million demonic mounted troops to kill a third of mankind by fire, smoke and sulfur that issues from the horses mouths.

      3. 7th Trumpet/3rd Woe:
      Satan and his angels cast out of heaven and restricted to the earth where, via the beast he makes war against the saints and conquers them by beheading them (Rev 20:4).

      “They overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But [WOE] to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

      You will notice that it is announced when the 1st and 2nd woes have completed, but it is not announced when the 3rd woe has completed. The only place that gives us a hint that the 3rd woe is starting is when Satan and his angels are being thrown down and restricted to the earth as seen in the verse above. “But [Woe] to the earth and sea because the devil has gone down to you”

      So to recap, I believe that the 3rd woe is Satan and his angels being thrown and restricted to the earth and that the bowl judgments are not apart of the 3rd woe, but are seperate judgments that follow the trumpets. This is just my anaylsis of course, as we are just sharing our own views regarding these issues.

      Also, I believe that Rev 12:1-6 is a summarization of Rev 12:7-17. In other words, when it is stated that “His tail drew a third of the stars out of the sky” the detail of that is found in the war in heaven. The phrase “His tail drew a third of the stars out of the sky” I believe it could be an inference that it is because of Satan that these angels suffered their fallen state because of his trafficing of them when he rebelled against God, which is why they will eventually be cast out of heaven. Just as there is a summarization of Satan and his angels, a summary is also given of the woman being cared for in the desert in Rev 12:6 and then the detail of that event is given in Rev 12:14-16.

      In regards to Petra being the place where Israel is cared for 3 1/2 years, you could be right, as I have heard of this before, but my point is that, the name of the place where she is cared for is just never mentioned, except for the mountains of Judea. Anything that I am up-in-the-air about regarding a specific subject in God’s word goes in what I call my “spiritual cupboard” and I keep it there until God reveals the truth about it to me.

      I wanted to respond to your post first, then I wanted to, in a second post, go step by step through chapter 12 if you are up for that, because I think that we should camp out on this for a bit? Then, I will try to tie it all together, including the details of the dragon such as the seven heads, ten horns and seven crowns, which I am sure that you are already aware of their meanings, since you abviously have done much studying. So, I will end here and then post my step my step and you can give me your input regarding these subjects.

      Until the next post then……

      Yours in Christ

  42. Hi Don,

    Great post as usual. I share you feelings about Chapter 12 and fully agree that it is a chapter that we should go through with a fine tooth comb so to speak.

    It is a critical mid-trib chapter and a virtual turning point into the second half of tribulations. If you would agree I suggest that we look at it literally verse by verse and build the picture from there. As I stated earlier I believe that we are seeing three time frames in this chapter, the past, the future and the present which may a bit more disguised. I yield to your next post and look forward to it.

    God Bless you my brother.

    In His grace

    Wes

    • Good day Wesley,

      I hope that all is well with you and your family. Ok, let’s go through it with a fine tooth comb as you say. So, I will begin with the 1st and 2nd verses:

      “A great and wondrous sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head.”

      We have both agreed that the woman is Israel as revealed by Jacob regarding Joseph’s dream as listed below in
      Gen 37:9-10:

      “Then he had another dream, and he told it to his brothers. ‘Listen,” he said, “I had another dream, and this time the sun and moon and eleven stars were bowing down to me.’ When he told his father as well as his brothers, his father rebuked him and said, ‘What is this dream you had? Will your mother and I and your brothers actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

      Here in John’s vision, God uses the symbols of the sun, moon and eleven stars from Joseph’s dream to identify who the woman is. In the dream, the sun, moon and eleven stars bow down to Joseph and Jacob identifies them as the following:

      “Will your mother (moon) and I (sun) and your brothers (eleven stars) actually come and bow down to the ground before you?”

      Therefore, since the “Woman” is clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and has a crown of twelve stars, the woman collectively represents the nation of Israel. God has made this very clear and yet, we have people out there who identify the woman as the church and I can’t understand why they avoid the obvious. God says “the sky is blue” and they run around trying to figure out what that means, instead of just understanding that God is saying that the sky is blue.

      “She was pregnant and cried out in pain as she was about to give birth.”

      The information above regarding the woman being pregnant is revealed in more detail with the next sign and we can examine it when we get there.

      “Then another sign appeared in heaven: an enormous red dragon with seven head and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads.

      The visions of the woman and the dragon are obviously symbolic and as with the book of this prophecy, many of the symbolisms are revealed within the book of Revelation itself and if not, then the answer can be found in other books throughout the word of God such as the identification of the woman above found in Gen 37:9-10. The symbolic details regarding the dragon are in fact revealed here in Revelation 17:

      First, the dragon as a whole, that is, the one who is representing and orchestrating the other parts of the dragon is identified as “Satan” as shown in Rev 12:9:

      “That great [dragon] was hurled down — that ancient serpent called the devil, or Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.”

      So, we can see by the verse above, that the designation of dragon and Satan are used interchangably to identify the same entity. The identity of the other details regarding the dragon are as follows:

      Seven Heads/Seven Hills: (Rev.17:9-10)
      “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits.”

      For now, let’s focus on the the seven heads and leave the woman who is riding the beast out of the picture until we come to that chapter, otherwise it would takes us in all kinds of directions and this would become a gigantic post.

      So, we know according to what the angel has revealed to John, that the seven heads represent seven hills upon which the woman sits. Without going into too much detail, the city of Rome was literally built upon what we know today as the “seven hills of Rome,” which is also where her religious center resides, the Roman Catholic Church (RCC). Since it is said that the woman sits on these seven hills, we can pretty much determine that the woman is representing the RCC, which is identified as the false religious system as we will see as we get to those chapters. Since these are the heads of the dragon, this means that this is Satan’s organization, that is, he has groomed this false religious system from the beginning of the church and created a counterfeit church since it is said that she rides the beast.

      Seven Heads/Seven Kings: (17:10-11)

      “They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eight king. He belongs to the seven and is gong to his destruction.”

      These seven represent a succession of kings:

      Five have fallen: Based on John’s time period, five of these kings have fallen, that is, come and gone.
      One is: The sixth king is ruling at the time the angel is giving John this information.
      The other has not yet come, but when he does come, he must remain for a little while: This of course would be the seventh king who at the time that John was receiving this information, was not yet ruling, but would come after king number six and remain for a little while.
      The beast who once was, and now is not: This is an eigth king who is counted as belonging to the other seven and he is going to his destruction. We know who this last king is by the description of his end, as this same description of his end is used in other books and verses to identify the anitchrist as can be seen in the verses below:

      “He will speak agains the Most Hight and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over ot him for a time, times and half a time. But the court will sit, and his power will be taken away and completely destroyed forever.” (Dan.7:25-26)

      “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven’. In the middle of the ‘seven’ he will put and end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.” (Dan.9:27)

      “Don’t let anyone deceiv you in any way, for that day will not come until the rebellion occurs and that man of lawlessness is revealed, the man doomed to destruction. (2 Thes.2:3)

      This eight king who belongs to the seven is also identified as “the beast who once was, now is not and yet will come.”
      Rev.9:11 identifies him as the angel of the Abyss and the king of those other demonic beings who are being let out of the Abyss during the 5th Trumpet/1st woe judgment:

      “They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.

      Both Abaddon and Apollyon mean “destroyer.”

      Once was: At a previous time to John receiving this information, this angel of the Abyss was once out of the Abyss.

      Now is not: As John is receiving this information, this angel is currently in the Abyss.

      And yet will come: He is still in the Abyss, but will be coming out in the future. I bid that when that 5th Trumpet is blown and that star (angel) falls from the sky to the earth and unlocks the Abyss to release those demonic beings for the purpose of tormenting mankind for five months is when this angel will be coming out as well, which will also lead him to the killing of the two witnesses, which we will examine as we get to those chapters.

      Ten Horns: Unlike the previous, who were and are a succession of kings, these ten horns represent future kings that will rule concurrently with the beast as seen in the following verses:

      “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. They will have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.”
      (Rev.17:12-13)

      In the future, when the beast comes into power, these ten will also receive authority as kings with the beast, ruling under him. These ten kings are also represented in the book of Daniel from Nebuchadnezzar’s dream as the ten toes of the feet made partly of iron and clay:

      “Just as you saw that the feet and toes were partly of baked clay and partly of iron, so this will be a divided kingdom; yet it will have some of the strength of iron in it, even as you saw iron mixed with clay. As the toes were partly iron and partly clay, so this kingdom will be partly strong and partly brittle. And just as you saw the iron mixed with clay, so the people will be a mixture and will not remain united, any more than iron mixes with clay.” (Dan.2:41-43)

      Well, I think that is enough to start chapter 12 and I am sure that we will be going over and over the same information. so now, I will wait for your reply. Until then ……

      Your in Christ

  43. Hi Don,

    When you use your fine tooth comb, you use you use your fine tooth comb brother. For someone to get this much information from two verses is a definite love for the word. In my response I will try to give a perspective that ties in with your comments without being repetitive but sticking to biblical truths.

    Rev 12:1-2
    And a great sign appeared in heaven: a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars; 2 and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth.

    Firstly this is a mid-tribulation chapter, there are several things happening at mid-trib, they are:

    ~Antichrist is killed
    ~Satan is thrown down to earth
    ~Satan and Antichrist become one
    ~Two witnesses are overcome
    ~The 144,000 are martyred
    ~The earth is warned

    At this point in revelations the world would have passed through the first 6 seal judgments and the 7th seal would have unleashed the trumpet judgments including two of the three woes:
    SEALS
    ~conquering leader
    ~world war
    ~famine
    ~pestilence and death
    ~saints martyred
    ~world disasters
    —————————- 7th Seal opened—————————–
    TRUMPETS
    ~hail, fire and blood
    ~seas are blood
    ~fresh water is bitter
    ~sun, moon and stars reduced a third
    ———————————-WOES———————————–
    ~locusts (demons)
    ~4 angels unleashed (1/3 of mankind killed)

    The 7th trumpet still to sound bringing with it the last woe or seven bowl judgments. By now I think if we can somehow imagine the world and the inhabitants, we will see our planet in a very bad state. And these judgments happen literally in a 31/2 year period without ceasing. Things are so terrible at this point that even God’s mercy is expressed in Him keeping men alive through unspeakable torment for five months so that they can be saved before grace is totally removed.

    Let’s return to chapter 12:1-2, John is seeing the nation of Israel and represents his vision using symbols which we agree are clearly explained in Gen 37:9. Also, other places in the old testament describes the nation of Israel as a woman, even a woman in travail:

    Isa 54:5 “For your husband is your Maker, Whose name is the Lord of hosts; And your Redeemer is the Holy One of Israel, Who is called the God of all the earth.

    Isa 66:7 “Before she travailed, she brought forth; Before her pain came, she gave birth to a boy.

    Mic 4:10 “Writhe and labor to give birth, Daughter of Zion, Like a woman in childbirth, For now you will go out of the city, Dwell in the field, And go to Babylon. There you will be rescued; There the Lord will redeem you From the hand of your enemies.

    There are more scriptures that prove conclusively that the woman of Rev 12 is Israel but we are agreed on this. As to why the obvious is ignored I’ll be looking out for those who question,’the sky is blue?’ (lol)

    Rev 12:2, and she was with child; and she cried out, being in labor and in pain to give birth. This is where we are disagreed, hmmph! I will open my comments with the following:

    Isa 7:14, “Therefore the Lord Himself will give you a sign: Behold, a virgin will be with child and bear a son, and she will call His name Immanuel.

    Remember the world is at a point in time when great suffering, death and destruction have literally plagued the planet in a relatively short space of time, {31/2 years}. We know the child is a male child [as we will see later] but I wonder, is the nation of Israel in travail, giving birth to a male child that would be martyred or a male child that will defeat the enemy?

    Okay the nation was in labor ready to give birth, if the male child is the 144,000 whom we are told would be martyred by mid trib, and whose ministry would also end at that time. How is their death going to save Israel and her inhabitants of that day? Remember we are coming up on the third woe and God’s grace has ended for the rest of tribulation and Israel would be at the darkest time in her history. A saviour, the saviour is the only one that has the power to save Israel, they would have to call out for their saviour as Christ obligated them to do for His return: Matt 23:39 “For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, ‘ Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!”

    The saviour was not born during the tribulation time, the 144,000 are however children that resulted from tribulations. That is why I reaffirmed in my last post that part of chapter 12 is a historical account of why the world is at this point in its history (apocalypse). I believe that verses 1 – 5 is the history of original sin to Satan believing he won when Christ was crucified after failed attempts by the hand of Herod, only to be rudely awakened with God resurrecting Christ and calling Him up to be seated at the Father’s right hand. We know this to be true in the following scripture: John 6:70, Jesus answered them, “Did I Myself not choose you, the twelve, and yet one of you is a devil?”

    I believe, that the devil knows the event that would precipitate the return of Christ is the nation of Israel calling out for the Messiah in unison. That is evident by the ceaseless persecution of the Jews throughout history after Christ’s resurrection. We have seen already that God was in control even up to the selection of Judas who was indwelt by the devil to betray Jesus to death. At this point in tribulation the devil will increase his plans to destroy the nation now to prevent it from calling out for the Messiah, by pretending to be Christ, by the death of the 144,000, by leading the nations against Israel in the battle of Armageddon.

    As we saw earlier the devil tried to have Jesus killed by using Herod and then later with Judas as his betrayer, to end God’s prophesy of Gen 3:15 And I will put enmity Between you and the woman, And between your seed and her seed; He shall bruise you on the head, And you shall bruise him on the heel.” Throughout history the devil has tried persecution and infiltration, he has infiltrated Christian doctrines with his own doctrines, he pretends to be an angel of light, he signs peace treaties, he restores temple sacrifices, all in an effort to sway the nation of Israel from the true Christ.

    If the 144,000 is the male child then there would be no need for the devil to continue with his plans of destruction after the 144,000 are martyred. The male child is Israel’s most famous son, the Son of God, Yeshua. Verses 1 and 2 of chapter 12 tells of child who is the one destined to save Israel and destroy the enemy, the 144,000 are bond servants of the one who is chosen.

    I look forward to your next comments and verses 3-5 explanations.

    In His grace,

    Wes

    John 16:21-22, “Whenever a woman is in travail she has sorrow, because her hour has come; but when she gives birth to the child, she remembers the anguish no more, for joy that a child has been born into the world.

    • Yes, I use my fine tooth comb just like on “Space Balls” when they are combing the desert, ha, ha! Soooo ….. we have different ideas about the male child and the 144,000 and so, I guess we can move on. Previously we identified the dragon, his seven heads, ten horns and seven crowns and we wil be going over these details again, because this information is laced throughout Revelation. So now, I am picking up from Rev.12:4:

      “His tail swept a third of the stars out of the sky and flung them to the earth.”

      I believe that the dragon (Satan) sweeping them out of the sky and flinging them to the earth, is a summarization of the war that is in heaven, when Satan and his angels are thrown down to the earth. In fact, I believe that verses 1 thru 6 are a summarization and verses 7-16 are the details. In verse 1 Israel is identified as the woman, she is pregnant, Satan is identified as the dragon, including the other characterics of his orchestration such as the seven heads, ten horns and the seven crowns. Satan is standing in front of the woman (Israel) waiting to devour her child the moment it is born. Israel gives birth, but before the dragon can devour it, he is snatched up to God and His throne. As I said, this is one of the reasons why I don’t believe that the male child is Jesus, because in the scenario, the male child is not harmed at all, because like the church, it is snatched up before Satan can devour it, which gives me the impression that they are still alive at the time that the “snatching away” takes place, same as the church. In other words, I believe that the male child is changed, in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and caught up just as the church will be. In keeping with the story, though Jesus escaped Herod, he did not escape the dragon, as he was crucified, which is another reason he doesn’t fit the bill.

      Also, because of the way that it is written, the event of the woman giving birth and her fleeing into the desert seem to be in the same time frame and not 2000 years apart. If Jesus was the male child, we would be talking about his birth and then the woman fleeing over 2000 years later and even beyond where we are currently, but in the verse it is written as sequencial event in the same time frame.

      “She gave birth to a male child , who will rule all the nations with an iron scepter.”

      I commented on this last time, in that, the phrase “who will rule with an iron scepter” is given as a promise to those who overcome stated in the letter to the Thyatira, regarding the male child and also of Jesus and therefore, this phrase is not specific to Jesus for identification purposes.

      “The woman fled into the desert to a place prepared for her by God, where she might be taken care of for 1,260 days.”

      So, with the verse above, we have the end of the summarization of the woman fleeing into the desert as well as the dragons tail drawing a third of the stars (angels) out of the sky and with the next verse, we begin the detailed account. Also, we know that 1,260 days equals 3 1/2 years counted in 30 day increments:

      “And there was war in heaven. Michael and his angels fought against the dragon, and dragon and his angels fouth back. But he was not strong enough, and they lost their place in heaven.” That great dragon was hurled down–that ncient serpent called the devil and Satan, who leads the whole world astray. He was hurled to the earth, and his angels with him.(His tail drew a third of the stars out of heaven).

      Here in the verse above, the dragon’s identity is revealed as being Satan as well as the who the “Stars” are as mentioned in verse 4. The stars that the dragon’s tail is sweeping out of heaven are identified in verse 7 as the Satan’s angels.

      “Then I heard a loud voice in heaven say: ‘Now have come the salvation and the power and the kingdom of our God, and the authority of his Christ. For the accuser of our brothers, who accuses them before our God day and night, has be hurled down. The overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony; and they did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you ! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

      In the verses above, heaven is cellebrating because the one who is constantly accusing the saints and annoying heaven has finally be thrown out. I’m sure that the holy angels of God get tired of putting up with Satan and his angels being in heaven with them, but when this takes place, they will finally be kicked out and the heavens will rejoice when that takes place. Satan is continually accusing and Jesus is interceding on ours and the tribulation saints behalf.

      “[But woe] to the earth and the sea, because the devil has gone down to you ! He is filled with fury, because he knows that his time is short.”

      Here is that ever elusive 3rd Woe. It is Satan and his angels being cast down to the earth and why is it a woe? Because he is filled with fury because he knows that his time is short, aproximately 3 1/2 years from the time that he and his angels are thrown down and restricted to the earth. During this last 3 1/2 years he will be making war and conquering the tribulation saints with beheading.

      Well sir, I will stop here for now. I am here at work and Monday going into Tuesday is my hardest time, because I go from day shift and switch over to night shift. Yeah, it’s hard, but somebody has to do it, right? I look forward to your next response.

      your in Christ

  44. Hello Don,

    We have alot to cover so I’ll get straight into it. Rev 12:3-6 And another sign appeared in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon having seven heads and ten horns, and on his heads were seven diadems. 4 And his tail swept away a third of the stars of heaven, and threw them to the earth. And the dragon stood before the woman who was about to give birth, so that when she gave birth he might devour her child. 5 And she gave birth to a son, a male child, who is to rule all the nations with a rod of iron; and her child was caught up to God and to His throne. 6 And the woman fled into the wilderness where she had a place prepared by God, so that there she might be nourished for one thousand two hundred and sixty days.

    John again uses the term ‘sign’ to describe what he is seeing, before he used the woman to describe Israel and now he uses great red dragon to identify the devil. The description he gives of the devil is quite interesting, it’s not a wounded fallen angel, it’s a fallen angel with authority over 10 kingdoms using seven earthly kings as his instruments because he is not flesh and bones. Also accompanying him is a third of the angel of heaven who joined him, all not having physical form.

    Let’s back up a bit, Satan and his minions are being cast out of heaven? Why are they in heaven? Were they not the ones who tried to overthrow God? In the book of Job 2:1-2, Again there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the Lord, and Satan also came among them to present himself before the Lord. 2 And the Lord said to Satan, “Where have you come from?” Then Satan answered the Lord and said, “From roaming about on the earth, and walking around on it.” This is telling us that Satan was granted access to God’s throne room and as we learn elsewhere he accuses the saints night and day while Jesus serves as our intercessor or High Priest. God’s grace has no boundaries if He allows Satan such a privilege.

    At this mid-trib point the Antichrist would have been wielding some measure of power, the world would have experienced 6 seal judgments, {7th seal}6 trumpet judgments including 2 woes, the 3rd woe is coming quickly. The 3rd woe being the 7 bowls of wrath, signals that tribulation is coming to an end in 3 1/2 years. The world I wager would be in utter chaos; the two witnesses and the 144,000 along with countless millions would have been martyred, died during the judgments as well some would have been slain for their witness. If the Antichrist exposes his true nature at mid trib, Satan and his minions cast down to earth at mid-trib, then who is persecuting the witnesses, the 144,000 bond servants as well as the tribulation saints?

    I believe that the world would have degenerated into an utterly lawless society without hope. Technology would virtually be non-existent or required because famine and diseases would be plaguing mankind without any end in sight. Then to add insult to injury Satan and his minions are roaming about on a planet in strife and hopelessness. When the Antichrist sets up the abomination of desolation it would be extremely difficult for the earth’s remnant not to bow down to him as worship him! For those who are alive in that time that have discerned the scriptures would obviously refuse the Antichrist and his trickery and would be slain for their testimony. The mark of the beast would become a necessity since resources would be difficult to come by, again without knowledge of scriptures mankind would readily line up to receive the mark.

    Let me get back on point, the world is in turmoil and like the nature of mankind in the past that has encountered difficulties he would be seeking someone to blame! As we saw in a previous chapter there was Christmas-like celebration when the two witnesses were killed. I think it is going to reach to the point where neighbors would be asking neighbors if they took the mark of the beast? And if they answer No! They would be killed immediately without trial or mercy. The world at this time would be filled with mostly unbelievers so this type of betrayal would be common.

    History has a funny way of repeating itself so it would not be too difficult to convince the other nations to come together against the nation of Israel. There are going to be Jews that would heed the gospel prophesies and flee to the prepared place in Bozrah or Petra as it is called today. Others would stay and it may these that the armies of the world are led into battle against. Satan and his false prophet would be extremely frustrated by then because they cannot get to those Jews that fled and he would be aware that his time is very very very short before the nation cries out in unison for their Messiah.

    The Antichrist under imperialistic rule would have defeated 3 kings out of 10 and reduced the rule to 7kings led by an 8th (the Antichrist) over 10 kingdoms. Dan 7:8 “While I was contemplating the horns, behold, another horn, a little one, came up among them, and three of the first horns were pulled out by the roots before it; and behold, this horn possessed eyes like the eyes of a man, and a mouth uttering great boasts. If we examine the description of the dragon in Rev 12:3 it gives us the picture of who is behind the power of the Antichrist.

    I await your comments, until then I thank God for this opportunity in His word which was made possible through Christ work on the cross.

    In grace

    • Hello Wesley! Just to recap, so far we in agreement on most everything except regarding the male child and 144,000. You are mainting that the male child is representing Jesus and I, that the male child is representing the 144,000. Also, you believe that the 3rd woe is made up of the bowl judgments and I maintain that the 3rd woe is the event of Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven to the earth.

      “The woman was given the two wings of a great eagle, so that she might fly to the place prepared for her in the desert, where she would be taken care of fro a time, times and half a time, out of the serpent’s reach.” (Rev 12:14)

      I always wondered what the term “great eagle” might mean, that is, if it might be a plane, like an airliner(s) that carries them to the that place in the desert? Just a thought. And of course by John using the phrase “time, times and half a time,” we know that this is representing 3 1/2 years, which would put Israel’s fleeing at the middle of the seven year period and being cared for in the wilderness up until Jesus returns at the end of that last 3 1/2 years.

      “Then from his mouth the serpent spewed water like a river, to overtake the woman and sweep her away with the torrent. But the earth helped the woman by opening its mouth and swallowing the river that the dragon had spewed out of his mouth.”

      Here, the phrase “spewed water like a river” I believe is referring to Satan through the beast sending an army after her. A flood of water is used in other places in God’s word to represent an army such as is found in Psalms 124:

      “If the Lord had not been on our side– let Israel say–If the Lord had not been on our side when [men attacked us, when their anger flared against us], they would have swallowed us alive; the [flood] would have engulfed us, the [torrent] would have sept over us, the [raging waters] would have [swept] us away.”

      So, in the example above, we see that the Psalm starts out by men attacking them and then those men are symbolized in the text as a flood, a torrent and raging waters. So, I believe that here in Revelation that Satan is sending out an army to overtake Israel and they are symbolized by a flood. As he does this, I believe that God literally causes the earth to open up and swallows the army that is going after the woman, Israel.

      “Then the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her offspring–those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus.”

      Now, since the dragon (Satan) is unsuccessful at overtaking the woman (Israel), he is enraged and goes off to make war against the rest of her offspring, which I believe is not speaking in regards to Israelites, but is in regards to the great tribulation saints who are made up of all peoples. Notice that the verse says that the dragon went off to “make war” against the rest of her offspring. This is similar to the following verse in Rev.13:7 speaking of the great tribulation saints:

      “He was given power to [make war] against the saints and to conquer them.”

      Not only that, but her offspring are also identified as “those who obey God’s commandments and hold to the testimony of Jesus,” which is another characteristic of the great tribulation saints, for they are beheaded because of that testimony.
      In the same way that we as gentile christians are related to Abraham as our father in faith, I believe that the woman’s offspring is meant in the same way. Not that they are literal blood offspring, but spiritual offspring.

      I have one thing to say in regards to when you said “Technology would virtually be non-existent.” Without technology, the mark of the beast would not fuction, as the mark (chip) will allow people to access their bank accounts for the purpose of crediting and debiting in the same manner as the debit card works. This will all be done by computer transaction, so that system will still be in place. But you are correct in that the world will be in Chaos, as God, through the judgments, will be dismantaling the human goverments, which is what was meant by the Rock that was cut out of the mountain, which falls on the feet of Nebuchadnezzer’s statue.

      Well Wesley, I will stop here before going on to chapter 13, which gives us more detail about this beast, which as you remember is represented by one of the seven heads being a succession of kings and he being that last king, an eigth king who belongs to the seven, also know as the beast and anitchirst who receives a fatal head wound. There is much information to be revealed here in this chapter, but isn’t that the way the entire book is? I look forward to your continued input as always and we will probably spend some time in this chapter as well. so, until the next post then. Thank you as always for all of your in depth input.

      Yours in Christ

  45. Hello Don,

    Thanks for the recap, I believe that when we finish the entire book we will reach a consensus. I think, despite our differences we can move on without losing sight of the overall discussion and that is a plus, thank God.

    Regarding the great eagle, I think I can shed some light on it. As we know already scripture proves itself, God is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow, so it stands to reason just as the judgments are similar in nature to the plagues of Egypt that God will use a similar mode of delivering His people in the end times. We turn to Ex 19:4, ‘You yourselves have seen what I did to the Egyptians, and how I bore you on eagles’ wings, and brought you to Myself.

    Let me explain, He (God) had borne the Israelites on eagles’ wings; manifesting in this way not only the separation between Israel and the Egyptians, but the adoption of Israel as the nation of His especial grace and favour. The “eagles’ wings” are figurative, and denote the strong and loving care of God. The eagle watches over its young in the most careful manner, flying under them when it leads them from the nest, least they should fall upon the rocks, and be injured or destroyed. No less is the case going to be in the end times, God will again protect and provide for His people.

    Rev 12:15-16, And the serpent poured water like a river out of his mouth after the woman, so that he might cause her to be swept away with the flood. 16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened its mouth and drank up the river which the dragon poured out of his mouth.

    I have absolutely no problem with your explanation about the above verses being,’Satan through the beast sending an army after her. A flood of water is used in other places in God’s word to represent an army such as is found in Psalms 124:’ I would like to share a different perspective looking at the flood literally. As I indicated in a previous post the place where the Jews flee to is known as Petra or Bozrah located in Edom, Moab and the foremost of the sons of Ammon (all in Southern Jordan). As a side note in support of Petra/Bozrah let me cite a verse from Matt 24:15-16, “Therefore when you see the abomination of desolation which was spoken of through Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place (let the reader understand), 16 then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.” Jesus said, ” Flee to the mountains!” That is exactly the type of region Petra/Bozrah is. The trek that the believing Jews will take is also in line with, Isa 33:13-16″You who are far away, hear what I have done;And you who are near, acknowledge My might.” 14 Sinners in Zion are terrified;Trembling has seized the godless.”Who among us can live with the consuming fire? Who among us can live with continual burning?”
    15 He who walks righteously, and speaks with sincerity, He who rejects unjust gain, And shakes his hands so that they hold no bribe;He who stops his ears from hearing about bloodshed,And shuts his eyes from looking upon evil; 16 He will dwell on the heights;His refuge will be the impregnable rock;His bread will be given him;His water will be sure.’ Notice sinners in Zion are afraid because of what they are faced with, they would heed Jesus’ words in Matt 24: 15-16 and flee to a prepared place.

    Got way side tracked there but its all good! Anyway the type of region and the path to get there is filled with Wadies or narrow passages where during the rainy season flood waters rage because the ground cannot absorb it. If the devil, who will be granted limited power over the weather in that day, wanted to destroy the fleeing Jews all he has to do is send a flood. In this case however it would be in vain cause God has promised safe deliverance {eagles wings} so He would miraculously open up the earth and swallow up the flood thus angering Satan who will turn his wrath, as described in Rev 12:17 And the dragon was enraged with the woman, and went off to make war with the rest of her offspring, who keep the commandments of God and hold to the testimony of Jesus.

    I am not certain that the ‘rest of her offspring’ is other than the Jews. At this point in time Satan is increasingly angry because the only hope he has from preventing his ultimate end is to prevent the nation of Israel from calling out for the Messiah in unison as detailed in Matt 23:39, “For I say to you, from now on you shall not see Me until you say, ‘ Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord!'” Therefore the only option he has is to utterly destroy the Jewish people and that is exactly what he is trying to do and tried to throughout the history of the nation from AD70 onwards, even to this day look at what is taking place in that region. Hitler most noticeably tried to annihilate the Jewish people for no real reason, the Iranian President wants to wipe them off the face of the earth.

    As I see it, the only threat the gentile nations pose to Satan’s plan to destroy the Jews is through their alliance. Given that he would lead an army against the nation (Armageddon) there isn’t going to be much of, if any at all, alliances as we know it. I think the mark of the beast is what Satan is going to use to build his loyalist army, those who don’t take it would be killed (great tribulation saints) cause he does not have time to worry about evangelism.

    As far as the chip technology, it can still be used despite the vast destruction, there would not be a variety of uses other than maybe to buy food and medication and other basic needs. Additionally chapter 13 is contemporaneous with chapter 12 as both texts are layered upon each other as we would see when we get there.

    Well we’ve ended chapter 12 with agreements and disagreements on the issues. Nonetheless the final outcome would be unchanged as it is predestined by God. It does feel right though that we share our views, I think it allows for us to research more, see things in different perspectives, try to piece things together and all the while glorifying God through Christ Jesus. Looking forward to your opening comments on chapter 13.

    In His Grace

    Wes

    • Good day Wesley! Yes, I agree that it is good to share our views and you are right, it does cause us to dig deeper for the sake of the truth and to be thorough. I am always open to other views and to weigh them out as I am sure that you are the same way. So, on to chapter 13 then.

      “And I saw a beast coming out of the sea. He had ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns, and on each head a blasphemous name.”

      The beast here in in chapter 13 is the same beast mentioned in chapter 12, but listed a little differently. In Rev.12:3 the dragon is listed as having seven heads and ten horns and seven crowns on his heads. Here in Rev.13:1 he is mentioned as having ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns on his horns. What both descriptions have in common are the “seven heads” and “Ten Horns.” In the chapter 12 description, the emphesis is on the seven crowns, which are sysnonymous with the seven heads, the crowns representing kingship. And in chapter 13, the emphesis is on the ten crowns, which are also kings. Both the seven heads and ten horns are identified as kings found in Rev.17:9-12.

      “This calls for a mind with wisdom. The seven heads are seven hills on which the woman sits. They are also seven kings. Five have fallen, one is, and the other has not yet come; but when he does come, he must remain for a little while. The beast who once was, and now is not, is an eighth king. He belongs to the seven and is going to his destruction.”

      Seven Heads
      I know this is redundant, but it is good to go over and over this information and we will do it again. Here we have the description of the seven kings, which unlike the ten horns (kings) are a succession of kings as seen by the angels description of them being that from John’s time frame, five of those kings had already fallen (come and gone). One is, meaning that, as John was receiving this information from the angel, the sixth king was ruling. The seven king had not yet come since the sixth king was still ruling and when the seventh did come, he would remain in rulership for a little while. There are only seven heads and we have already listed seven kings, but this eighth king belongs to the seven and so he is counted with the seven. This eighth king is that king who is that last day ruler, which is the antichrist. Something that gives him away as being that antichrist is that it is said that he is “going to his destruction” and we know from other passages that this is a description of the beast, which is interchangable with antichrist.

      Ten Horns
      “The ten horns you saw are ten kings who have not yet received a kingdom, but who for one hour will receive authority as kings along with the beast. They have one purpose and will give their power and authority to the beast.”

      Unlike the seven kings who were and are a succession of kings, which started prior to John’s time with the last one still to come, these ten kings will receive authority as kings along with the beast and so, they will become kings and rule concurrently under the beasts leadership, which would put them as becoming kings at a future time, since the beast has not yet been revealed. Also, according to the verse, their purpose will be to use their power and authority on behalf of the beast.

      “The beast I saw resembled a leopard, but had feet like those of a bear and a mouth like that of a lion.”

      In Daniels dream (Dan.7:1-7), God shows daniel all of the world ruling kingdoms from the beginning to the end. The “Leopard” represents Greece under Alexander the great, the “Bear” represents Medo-Persia and the “Lion” Babylon. The last beast mentioned in Daniel is this beast here in chapter 13, which is of Iron (Rome) and latter mixed with clay, which is still future. The fact that it is mentioned that the beast here in chapter 13 resembles a Leopard, has the feet like those of a Bear and a mouth like that of a Lion, would suggest that this last kingdom will have some of the attributes of those previous kingdoms, which may be reprepresenting the baked clay, that is, not having the same power as completely being iron.

      “The dragon gave the beast his power and his throne and great authority.”

      It was revealed in Rev.12:9 that the dragon is non other than Satan and therefore, Satan here is giving his power, throne and great authority to this beast to carry out his purpose.

      “One of the heads of the beast seemed to have had a fatal wound, but the fatal wound had been healed.”

      Rememer earlier that we saw that the seven heads represented seven kings, well the head that receives the fatal head wound is that “eighth king.” This fatality happens for the same reason that the false prophet performs his counterfeit miracles and signs, which is to give credibility to the beast. Fatal, means “The death of the body” and so, it is obvious to the inhabitants of the earth that see this head wound, that it is unsurvable, but this beast survives which will be a type of resurrection and this will add to his credibility. So, the purpose of this fatal head wound along with the counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders that the false prophet will be performing will all be for the purpose of giving the beast credibility as he will be proclaiming himself to be God or anything that is called God or worshiped.

      Well, I think that I will stop here and will wait for your comments and your input. There is so much information laced into God’s word, that only after going over and over it do all the pieces of the puzzle start to come together. I think that it was God’s pleasure to write his word in this manner so that we would have to study and dig for the answers. Most people that I speak to about Revelation are afraid of it and confused and so they leave it alone for the most part, but I feel that the book of Revelation is the “Grand Central Station” of the bible. Some years ago, when I was flipping through the channels on the tv, I heard a preacher tell his congregation that “They would no longer be concerned with the book of Revelation because it put too much of the fear of God into the congregation.” When I heard that, I was thinking of the blessing in the first verse for those who read the word of this prophecy and for those who hear it and take to heart what is written. Not only that, but the curses for those who add too and take away from this book. For me, God drew me to this book from the very beginning and 37 years later I am still in it, looking for and uncovering it’s hidden secrets and truths. The fact that the Father gave it to Jesus who gave to his angel to show us the things that must soon take place would suggest that it is important to God that we continue to study and understand this book and all of the related books and verses that helps us understand Revelation as well as the rest of God’s word. Well, I will leave off here and look forward to your post. May God bless us as we continue to strive to understand his word and God help us to be doers of his word.

      Yours in Chirst

  46. Hi Don,

    Once again you have given very detailed explanations of scriptures, I believe, as indicated in the last post that both chapters 12 and 13 are layered on each other, in other words, they are contemporaneous and not sequential. This is critical to understanding Revelations as it can appear that events are repeating when they are simply being elaborated on in some cases. It also clarifies timelines. The study of scriptures is not an event in our lives it is the reason for our lives….

    Before we proceed, we exited chapter12 with the casting out of Satan and his minions with very little time left so he immediately pursues the Jews to utterly destroy them. But before all these things was the fall.

    Ezek 28:12-17 13 “You were in Eden, the garden of God; Every precious stone was your covering:The ruby, the topaz, and the diamond; The beryl, the onyx, and the jasper;The lapis lazuli, the turquoise, and the emerald; And the gold, the workmanship of your settings and sockets, Was in you. On the day that you were created They were prepared. 14 “You were the anointed cherub who covers, And I placed you there.You were on the holy mountain of God; You walked in the midst of the stones of fire. 15 “You were blameless in your ways From the day you were created, Until unrighteousness was found in you. 16 “By the abundance of your trade You were internally filled with violence, And you sinned; Therefore I have cast you as profane From the mountain of God. And I have destroyed you, O covering cherub, From the midst of the stones of fire. 17 “Your heart was lifted up because of your beauty; You corrupted your wisdom by reason of your splendor.I cast you to the ground; I put you before kings,That they may see you. 18 “By the multitude of your iniquities, In the unrighteousness of your trade,You profaned your sanctuaries.Therefore I have brought fire from the midst of you; It has consumed you, And I have turned you to ashes on the earth In the eyes of all who see you. 19 “All who know you among the peoples Are appalled at you; You have become terrified, And you will be no more.”

    I made a note of Satan’s fall to demonstrate the wonderful intense nature of his creation to the notorious bitter state of his wrath which John aptly described in Rev 12:12…..Woe to the earth and the sea, because the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, knowing that he has only a short time.”

    On to chapter 13: Rev 13:1-2, And he stood on the sand of the seashore. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns and seven heads, and on his horns were ten diadems, and on his heads were blasphemous names. 2 And the beast which I saw was like a leopard, and his feet were like those of a bear, and his mouth like the mouth of a lion. And the dragon gave him his power and his throne and great authority.

    Daniel gives a description of the beast which suggests a unification of all the gentile kingdoms. The leopard – the Greek empire represented by the speed by which Alexander conquered, the bear – the Mede-Persia empire represented by the uneven nature of two empires merging, the lion – the Babylonian empire, the winged lion was the symbol of the Babylonian empire. Of note is the 4th empire being represented by horns, heads, crowns and blasphemous names. The 4th kingdom is imperialistic in nature which basically says that the conquered can have their own form of government and customs but they would be loyal to their conquerer and support him in military might and taxes.

    Let’s examine the beast from chap 12 and 13:
    chap 12 beast chap 13 beast
    great red dragon beast coming out of the sea
    seven heads and ten horns ten horns and 7 heads
    on his heads were 7 diadems on his horns were 10 diadems

    From what I am reading here I am seeing the early beginnings of the false trinity. Its like a counterfeit father/son/spirit relationship. The great red dragon is drawing near to the Antichrist who rose to power from a 10 kingdom imperialistic empire by subduing 3 of the 10, leaving 7 kings and the Antichrist being the 8th who through Satan rules over the 7 kings. The 10 kingdoms will be unchanged but the governorship is now reduced to 7 mid-level rulers and 1 ultimate ruler who gets his power to rule from Satan as far as God permits according to greater purpose.

    .
    Rev 13:3-5 And I saw one of his heads as if it had been slain, and his fatal wound was healed. And the whole earth was amazed and followed after the beast; 4 and they worshiped the dragon, because he gave his authority to the beast; and they worshiped the beast, saying, “Who is like the beast, and who is able to wage war with him?” 5 And there was given to him a mouth speaking arrogant words and blasphemies; and authority to act for forty-two months was given to him.

    It is a common thought that the Antichrist is slain and resurrected by the Dragon and thereby amazing the world. People on that day would be seeing a virtual miracle of the dead being brought back to life. I can relate to how amazing this would appear to be, this man is the world ruler and to top it off he was claiming to be a God earlier. This closely resembles Christ’s earthly ministry where He constantly said He was here to do the Father’s will! Christ was slain, remember the earlier scripture of the Lamb standing as if being slain. Christ is then resurrected and it appears as though the Antichrist is being resurrected at this point. It would indeed perfectly mimic the Holy Trinity and Christ’s ministry and resurrection, but wait a minute! This says that the Dragon has the power of resurrection that is sovereign only to God. If we accept this then our Lord being raised from the dead can mean that He is the son of the Dragon. God forbid!

    Let’s look at the arrival of the Antichrist in hell, upon Christ return the Antichrist is immediately thrown in the lake of fire while the Dragon and other non-believers are cast down into hell and not the lake of fire for 1,000 years yet. What I believe is the Antichrist is slain but he is not resurrected rather he is indwelt by the Dragon, this supports the verse….’and they worshiped the dragon, because he gave his authority to the beast…’ The Dragon is the object of worship. The Dragon has the power to indwell men as we saw with Herod and Judas, the Dragon is not omnipotent and does not have the power of resurrection. The Antichrist and the Dragon are now one entity and God has granted power and authority to this entity to overcome the saints.

    I’ll be very interested to hear your thoughts or rather see them on these comments in particular the entity of the dragon and the antichrist. Till then God bless.

    In grace,

    Wes

    • Hello Wesley! Sorry I was a little late getting this post out. I went to work Wednesday at 11p and got off early at 7a because I had to go to Jury duty. There were about 60 prospective jurors in the court room and when they asked each one if there were any reasons for not being able to be a juror, I mentioned my work hours and when we came back from lunch, they excused me and others, then I went home and still did not go to sleep, but turned my digital cable box in for a High Definition cable box and new controller and then I went down to “Best Buy” and upgraded my tv to a LG 42″ LCD with 1080p and 160hz. My what a difference from my old bulky 27″ tv. The picture is so clear and defined. Anyway, I didn’t get to watch much of it on the night I got it because I was so tired after being up for over 30 hours that I woke up on the couch. Oh well!

      Ok, I am in agreement with all that you posted, but I had some things to clerify and I would, as always like your feed-back. First, regarding the fatal head wound that the beast suffers. I don’t believe that the original man that was born in the body of the antichrist will be gone with Satan taking over his body. What I do believe is that, this resurrection will be like the miracles, signs and wonders that the false prophet performs, which are counterfeit, that is, this resurrection will be a counterfeit resurrection. How he is going to accomplish it, I don’t know, but it will be deceiving enough to make the world believe it. If the body of the man that was born as the antichrist was to die, then even if Satan were to possess his body, it would still be dead and begin to decay, because even though Satan or any other demonic being were to possess a dead body, they would not be able to make the heart, lungs, liver or any of the other organs function and therefore, Satan would only be able to use a dead human body for a short time before rigamortous began to set in and the body began to deteriorate. Demonic beings possess living bodies because the body is still alive and functioning and are able to indwell and take control over the human spirit that owns it. That being said, I believe that the original man born in the body will still be alive, but will be possessed by the beast that comes up out of the Abyss.

      That other reason is because, when Jesus returns, the antichrist along with the false prophet are thrown into the lake of fire alive and Satan is locked up in the Abyss.

      You wrote:
      “the Dragon and other non-believers are cast down into hell.”

      Response:
      First of all, the dragon, that is Satan, is cast down into the “Abyss,” which is the same place that the demonic beings collectively called “Legion” begged Jesus not to send them into found in Luke 8:31. The Abyss is a seperate place from Hades, which is erroneously translated “Hell.” Hades is the place of the “Lost dead” and the Abyss, though it is also within the earth is a place that fallen angels also called demons and unclean spirits reside. Satan has never occupied Hades. Many people have the idea that Satan created Hades and that it is his realm, but that is false, as God created Hades for unfaithful man. Now, there are three individual words in the NT translated as “Hell.” One is Geenna, which is a synonym for the “Lake of Fire,” which is accurately translated as “Hell.” The next is “Hades,” wrongly translatre “Hell,” which is within the heart of the earth where God keeps the “Lost Dead” such as seen in the story of Lazarus and the Rich Man found in Luke 16. The third place is the Greek word “Tartaroo,” which is used only once in 2 Peter 2:4 to describe the place where those angels, also called “the Watchers Heaven,” took for themselves wives from the progeny of men and the result was that they gave birth to giants. This place “Tartaroo” also mistranslated as “Hell” is defined by Strong’s as the deepest part of the Abyss containing these fallen angels until judgment. So, Hades is the place of the lost dead, the Abyss is the abode of the fallen angels, that is, the ones that are currently confined in there and Tartaroo is mentioned as the place where those angels that sinned by taking wives where cast into. The book of Etheopic Enoch sheds much light on these angels that were much of the cause for the flood. I have a complete post on “Hell,” so if you would like to check it, it is at the following address: https://dmcal52.wordpress.com/

      “The whole world was astonished and followed the beast.”

      What will the whole world be astonished about? They will be astonished because of what was previously mentioned and that being that, the beast recovered from his fatal head wound. The word “astonished” actually means that they will be enamored of him, that is, in admiration of him.

      “Men worshiped the dragon because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, “Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?”

      It is clear from the verse above that, the people of the earth are aware that Satan is behind all this, as it is stated that they worshiped both Satan and the beast and that because Satan bestowes the beast with his power and authority. Here Satan will be getting what originally caused his fall in the first place, the desire to be like God and to be worshiped.
      Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him? Jesus can and will at his return. How can that which is created, fight against Him who created all things?

      “The beast was given a mouth to utter proud words and blasphemies and to exercise his authority for forty-two months. He opened his mouth to blaspheme God, and to slander his name and his dwelling place and those who live in heaven. He was given power to make war against the saints and to conquer them.

      The verse above is an echo of what is written in Daniel 7:25 regarding this antichrist:

      “He will speak against the Most Hight and oppress his saints and try to change the set times and the laws. The saints will be handed over to him for a time, times and half a time.”

      The forty-two months mentioned in Revelation are the same as the time, times and half a time, which of course is referring to that last 3 1/2 years. As I stated in the earlier post, when it says that “the dragon was enraged at the woman and went off to make war against the rest of her off-spring,” I believe that the tribulation saints that he conquers and makes war against mentioned here whom he conquers and makes war against is that off-spring.

      “And he was given authority over every tribe, people, language and nation.”

      The verse above would definitely speak of a one world ruler being that every tribe, people, language and nation will be subject to him. So, it is not just Israel that is involved as some would claim, but the entire world.

      All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast–all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.”

      Though not mentioned here, in Rev 17:8, it is mentioned that those inhabitants of the earth who will be astonished at the beast, it is said that their names were not written in the book of life from the creation of the world, which informs us that the names of those whom God foreknew and predestined, their names were written in the book of life before the world even began and there were names that were not written in there. It is the Soverenity of God.

      Also, in the verse above which says: “the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.” This demonstrates that the sacrifice of Jesus was determined before the world ever began.

      “If anyone is to go into captivity, into captivity he will go. If anyone is to be killed with the sword, with the sword he will be killed. This calls for the patient endurance and faithfulness on the part of the saints.”

      I wanted to point something out here that we established way back in the beginning of chapter 4 and that is, have you seen the word “church” anywhere since the end of chapter 3 Wesley? Not at all and yet, from chapter 1 through the very end of chapter 3 the word “church” was used over and over again and then poof! Gone. Regarding the verse above, this is in reference to those saints caught in the great tribulation, which is basically saying, whatever your fate is, whether it is to go into captivity, then that person will go into captivity or if it is to be killed, then that person will be killed. Whatever your fate is, it will require the patient endurance of each individual saint based on whatever he is to go through. And we know that they do, because it says of them “They did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.”

      Well Mr. Wesley, it is 6:30 pm here and I have just 1 1/2 hours before I am done with my 12 hour shift and so I will end here before we start on the second beast that comes up out of the earth, who is revealed later as the false prophet. As always, I look forward to your response and input. When you have time you might want to go check out the post on Hell. If you go to my home-page and then scroll down until you see the title, which of course is “Hell.” Untile then.

      Yours in Christ

  47. Hello Don,

    You made some interesting observation regarding the corpse of the Antichrist rotting etc. But I’m still uncertain that I would want to give the ability to resurrect a dead body to the Dragon. Maybe it’s just the high esteem which I see our Father and being the only one who can do such. I don’t see any other biblical evidence to support a devil resurrection but I see possession, I need to get around the rotting corpse theory though. Maybe he takes on the physical image of the now dead Antichrist? Thanks for the feedback bro!

    I visited your site and began my reading regiment on Hell, I’m in total agreement with you on this issue.(Rev 13:5) and there was given to him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and there was given to him authority to continue forty and two months.
    There is the mid-trib sign that we were looking for, again this is also proof that this is layered chapter with chapter 12.

    It is quite interesting that you made a segway to point out that the church is not mentioned beyond chapter 3. I have been having several discussions on different blogs about the pre-trib vs the post-trib rapture doctrines. This point, although fully referenced and adequately explained the post-tribbers either failed to see it or simply refuse the analogy. I have an on-going blog where I am attempting to look at all the rapture doctrines in as much detail as possible and let the readers decide for themselves. Even though I know the rapture is pre-trib, I think it is better if there are skeptics as it would afford opportunities for deeper research and knowing God all the more in our search just as we have been doing here. God sure do work in mysterious ways!!!

    (Rev 13:10) If any man is for captivity, into captivity he goeth: if any man shall kill with the sword, with the sword must he be killed. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.
    This is verse that seems to have no place in the sequence of the verses prior and the verses to follow. It is, I believe it is meant to give encouragement for the believer in that day. I also believe that it is warning the believer that he/she cannot dream to reach the level of utter evil as his/her attackers have attained.

    (Rev 13:11) And I saw another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like unto a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.
    I believe we are seeing the false prophet in the verse above, as we saw earlier with the dragon and the beast mimicking ‘the Father/Son relationship’, we are now shown the completion of the unholy trinity. If we look at the role of this particular beast its role is similar to the Holy Spirit. Just as the Holy Spirit leads men to Jesus, this unholy beast is going to lead men into worship of the first beast (Antichrist) who leads the unsaved to worship of the Dragon – a parallel to Jesus’ leading us to God the Father. This is a false faith developing in the midst of saints being martyred for their testimony of Jesus, this false faith my dear friend is ‘Mystery Babylon’ which we will look at when we get to chapters 17, 18.

    (Rev 13:12) And he exerciseth all the authority of the first beast in his sight. And he maketh the earth and them dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose death-stroke was healed.
    The above is confirmation of the unholy false prophet’s role in the unholy trinity.

    (Rev 13:13) And he doeth great signs, that he should even make fire to come down out of heaven upon the earth in the sight of men.

    (Rev 13:14) And he deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by reason of the signs which it was given him to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast who hath the stroke of the sword and lived.
    Signs are notorious for building crowds but not building faith in God, remember the feeding of the 5,000+ and shortly after when Christ said to seek bread in heaven (paraphrasing) the crowd dissipated, also when Christ’s persecution came much of the crowd were not even on Jesus’ side. Paul said Jews seek signs but the Greek (Gentiles) seek wisdom.

    (Rev 13:15) And it was given unto him to give breath to it, even to the image to the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as should not worship the image of the beast should be killed.
    This is probably an animated being that will be in the temple – the abomination of desolation for 1290 days!

    (Rev 13:16) And he causeth all, the small and the great, and the rich and the poor, and the free and the bond, that there be given them a mark on their right hand, or upon their forehead;
    Well we are at the point of the chip technology or some form of herding of the unsaved. I think this unholy prophet would either have to be very powerful, people falling for his deception, some obviously of character as defined by them being great and wealthy, are spiritually devoid of grace or a combination of both. I am reminded of a cliche – the wise live off the fool.

    (Rev 13:17) and that no man should be able to buy or to sell, save he that hath the mark, even the name of the beast or the number of his name.
    This verse is a critical lesson to mid-tribbers and post-tribbers, I make this assertion because they criticize the pre-trib doctrine which has the church departing and righteousness with it. The only way a man can refuse to receive the mark of the beast in the face of starvation, illness or whatever is to be in receipt of some measure of grace. I think it is obvious that although the Holy Spirit is removed with the church at the pre-trib caught up there is still opportunity existing for men to be saved.

    (Rev 13:18) Here is wisdom. He that hath understanding, let him count the number of the beast; for it is the number of a man: and his number is Six hundred and sixty and six.
    We’ve made quite a bit of commentaries on the 666 mark and since I have no new info I’ll take my leave for now, but before I go let me ask you about:

    (Rev 14:1) And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.

    (Rev 14:2) And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps:

    (Rev 14:3) and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.

    (Rev 14:4) These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.

    The above verses tells of the martyred 144,000 standing with Lamb on Mount Zion which is on earth and at the same time they join the harpist before God’s throne. These are two different places but how can they be in two places at the same time?

    I look forward to your responses as well as our discussions on chapter 14. Jesus loves you, dwell forever in His grace.

    Wes

    • Hi Wesley! It’s a [counterfeit] resurrection, that is, it is not the same as Jesus resurrection. I don’t know how he will perform it, but it is not the same as Christ’s resurrection.

    • Greetings Wesley,

      Hope all is well with you and yours. In regards to the antichrist receiving the fatal head wound, I wanted to clarify my position. I appreciate your input regarding the antichrist dying and Satan possessing his body and I have had previously listed the problems related to this. I too am only presenting what I believe will be taking place, for we don’t know exactly how he is going to pull this off. But what I do believe will be happening is that, in the same way that the miracles, signs and wonders performed by the false prophet will be counterfeit, so also when the antichrist receives his fatal head wound and is healed, so also will this event be counterfeit as well. The counterfeit miracles and signs, along with this counterfeit resurrection are done for the same purpose and that is by these events to give credibility to the beast, as he will be proclaiming himself to be God. Remember what Jesus said regarding these things “For false Christs and false prophest will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect–if that were possible.” Therefore, these counterfeit events must be pretty convincing
      that if it were possible, that even the elect could be deceived. Just to give an idea of what I am presenting by counterfeit, I have listed the definition of the word as used in other places within the word of God:

      Counterfeit:

      Noah Webster’s Dictionary
      1. (a.) Fabricated in imitation of something else, with a view to defraud by passing the false copy for genuine or original; as, counterfeit antiques; counterfeit coin.

      2. (adj.) Having a false resemblance to something else; portrayed.

      3. (adv.) Assuming the appearance of something; false; spurious; deceitful; hypocritical; as, a counterfeit philanthropist.

      4. (n.) That which resembles or is like another thing; a likeness; a portrait; a counterpart.

      5. (n.) That which is made in imitation of something, with a view to deceive by passing the false for the true; as, the bank note was a counterfeit.

      6. (n.) One who pretends to be what he is not; one who personates another; an impostor; a cheat.

      7. (v. t.) To imitate, or put on a semblance of; to mimic; as, to counterfeit the voice of another person.

      8. (v. t.) To imitate with a view to deceiving, by passing the copy for that which is original or genuine; to forge; as, to counterfeit the signature of another, coins, notes, etc.

      9. (v. i.) To carry on a deception; to dissemble; to feign; to pretend

      I believe that the antichrist is going to receive his fatal head wound, be healed and some how make it look like (couterfeit) a resurrection.

      I am honored that you would find my post on “Hell” useful and informative. Most people don’t even know that there is a difference between Hades and the Lake of Fire or that they are even two seperate places. I also wanted to clarify that regarding the Abyss, as we have seen from Rev.9:1 and Rev.20:1, that a “key” is required to both open and lock the Abyss. Therefore, anything that is currently in there, must remain in there until it is opened. In fact, when it is opened in Rev.9:1 to let out those demonic beings and their king Abaddon, the Abyss remains open throughout the entire 3 1/2 years until it is closed when Satan is tossed in as seen in Rev.20:1.

      Regarding what you said about having discussions regarding pre-trib vs post-trib, first you must be a busy guy. So far, I only have your blogs to respond to. Also, even though I have presented much proof supporting a pre-trib resurrection and catching away, I have another verse from the word of God that you might be interested in presenting for those you are debating with, if I can get off of our discussion here for a moment and present the following:

      “Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:36)

      The information here is Lukes version of Matthew 24, which is describing that tribulation period as can be seen by the unmistakable signs and events that are to take place during that time period, such as the signs with the sun, moon and stars. Notice that regarding that time period that Jesus says “pray that you may be able to [escape] all that is about to happen.” Escape? How would one escape the day of the Lord when the entire earth is going to be involved? Regarding that time period God said in Isaiah 13:12 “I will make man scarcer than pure gold, more rare than the gold of Ophir.” And Jesus echoed the coming condition of that time when he said in Matthew 24:22, “If those days had not been cut short, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days wil be shortened.” So, you can see here that no one would be able to escape it by going through it or by being in it, so what is talking about? I believe that when he says here “pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen” that he is speaking about escaping by the resurrection and catching away. One would certainly not be able to escape it by remaining here on the earth. Notice he says “escape all that is about to happen” meaning to not even be apart of it or to be exposed to it. This would fit with what Jesus said in the letter to Philadelphia “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.” Jesus says “keep you [from] the hour of trial,” which would infer not going through the time period, but being kept from it completely, as there would be no way to be kept from it if we were still on the earth as it is said that it will come upon the “whole world.”

      Well, I got off the topic here to give you a little more amunition in your debate with them, but I find that people are more concerned with proving their positions that they obtained from someone else as being right, opposed to being open and considering the truth based on God’s word. For example, when you present things to me, I consider them, but if they don’t fit because of the other scriptures, then I refer to those scriptures. If it is something that is possible and worth examining, I keep it in my spiritual cupboard until God reveals the truth of the matter to me. As far as I am concerned, Paul outlined the entire sequence of events in 1 Thes.4:13 thourgh 5:11. He describes the resurrection and catching away, refers to it as the “day of the Lord” and then describes the wrath that follows and says that we are not appointed unto wrath. These so-called scholars are so sure of themselves, mostly because they are modern day Pharisees, that is, they want to be looked upon as the spiritual leaders who alone understand the word of God. I put no stock in their degrees or in their titiles. They always say, “the early church never taught a pre-tribulational resurrection and catching away and I say, well then, they have never read 1 Thes.4:13 through 5:11. Paul outlines it perfectly here starting with the resurrection and catching away taking place first, with the wrath of God following. There are two phases to the day of the Lord accourding to Paul, the resurrection and catching away initiates the day of the Lord, with the wrath of God to follow. This teaching is the reason why the Thessalonians wrote to Paul in 2 Thes. 2 and were concerned because some were saying that the day of Lord had already come and they were still on the earth, because they knew according to what paul taught them that when the day of the Lord took place, the first thing that would happen would be the resurrection and catching away and then the wrath of God. And so, the Thessalonians were concerned that since some were saying that the day of the Lord had already come, that they had missed it, that is, they had not been changed in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye and caught up to meet the Lord in the air and now all they had to look forward to was the wrath of God, which would come next. I list all of these reasons and more for a pre-trib resurection and catching away in my post with the same title “Resurrection and Catching Away.”

      Anyway, I hope that this will help in your debate. I will continue in Rev. 13 tonight when I go to work and also comment on the rest of what you wrote in your post. So, until my next post, Have a blessed day and look up for our redemption draws near.

      Yours in Christ

  48. Hi Don, just a short note of thanks for all the help with presenting evidence to validate a pre-trb rapture. Also thanks for further clarification on the slaying and resurrection of the beast. I’ve a very good resource for you to help in your search for understanding of God’s word and its free as well you can download and use offline as well: http://www.e-sword.net/. BTW thanks for the link to biblos.com, I used it and it very helpful, I also use PC Bible.

    In Grace

    Wes

    • Hello again,

      You’re welcome on all counts, glad to help. How many people are you debating with? Sounds like you have a lot going on. I would like it if I had more, but I think that they just view my sites without leaving a comment. I have had a couple of people comment, but just once and no follow up. I really need the fellowship or the debate, because of the hours I work, I see know one, either at work or at home. Anyway, I will start from where I left off in Rev. 13:11.

      “Then I saw another beast coming out of the earth. He had two horns like a Lamb, but he spoke like a dragon. He exercised all the authority of the first beast on his behalf, and made the earth and its inhabitants worship the first beast, whose fatal wound had been healed.”

      First of all, the first beast is said to come up out of the “sea” and this second beast comes up out of the “earth.” Here, he is referred to as the second beast, but later in Rev. 16:13 and 19:20 he is identified as the “False Prophet.” It is said that, this false prophet exercises all the authority of the first beast, but he exercises it on the first beasts behalf, that is, he exercises that authority to build up and exalt that first beast in the eyes of the people of the earth. I bid, the way in which this second beast will be able to make the inhabitants of the earth worship the first beast is because he is a false prophet, which means that he will be a religious leader with many followers and therefore, since we have this first beast reviving after a fatal head wound, this false prophet will be using that event to persuade the people of the earth that the first beast is their God, that is, he will be using the counterfeit resurrection to deceive them.

      “And he performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men. Because of the signs he was given to do on behalf of the first beast, he deceived the inhabitants o fthe earth.”

      These miraculous signs that he performs are also stated in 2 Thes. 2:9-10.

      “The coming of the lawless one will be in accordance with the work of Satan displayed in all kinds of counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, and in every sort of evil that deceives those who are perishing.”

      Just as this false prophet will be using the counterfeit resurrection of the first beast for the purpose of deceiving the people into believing that he is God, he will also be performing these counterfeit signs, miracles and wonders and even causing fire to come down out of heaven to the earth in full view of men for the same reason. He is using the appearance of being able to have control over life and death and the ability to perform supernatural, miraculous events and all for the purpose of decieving the inhabitants of the earth into believing that the first beast is God. If they had taken the time to read the word of God, they would know the same information that is being written here and would be aware of the coming deception just as we are. Of course, the faithful in Christ won’t be here to verbally tell them what is going on, as we will have already previously been caught up. My personal feeling is that the false prophet is going to be one of the coming popes. If we look at the RCC and the worship that the pope already receives, what do you think is going to happen when one of these popes begins to perform miraculous signs? The RCC is already a false religious system headed by the pope with all of his bishops and cardinals below him. The RCC teaches things that can not be found in the word of God such as, Jesus actually coming down into the Eucharist and therefore, the people literally eating his flesh and blood, Mary’s sinless life, her assention, deemed queen of heaven and the mother of God, her as co-redeemer and the like and yet, because he is the pope and the RCC looks like it is of God, they believe what he and those under him proclaim as the truth. So now, add to this, miracles, signs and wonders being performed in plain view of all the world and a what appears to be a resurrection and you have a large amount of deceive people following after a false religious system. Thank God that he has revealed his truth to us, otherwise we would be like them, unknowing and lost.

      “They perish because the refused to love the truth and so be saved. For this reason God sends them a powerful delusion so that they will believe the lie and so that all will be condemned who have not believed the truth but have delighted in wickedness.”

      The truth that they are refusing to love is that, God’s word is the truth and that Jesus is the Lord. And because of that, God sends them a strong delusion so that they will believe the lie. Here is the definition of the word “delusion.”

      1) a wandering, a straying about
      a) one led astray from the right way, roams hither and thither
      2) metaph.
      a) mental straying
      1) error, wrong opinion relative to morals or religion
      b) error which shows itself in action, a wrong mode of acting
      c) error, that which leads into error, deceit or fraud

      This delusion that God sends them then, is basically a “straying” from the truth, that is, because they refused to love the truth, he interviens causing them to believe the lie. The “lie” spoken of is what was previously mentioned, which are the counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders that the false prophet will be performing along with the fatal head wound and the counterfeit resurrection. When it says that “God sends them a strong delusion,” it makes me think of Pharoah, when God kept harding his heart after every miracle that Moses performed, so that he wouldn’t let his people go and God could display His power. Because they will not love the truth, God strengthens their inability to see the truth. Well, I must take care of things here at work as I now have two hours left before I leave. So, we can continue with Rev.13:14 at the next posting. Until then my friend…..

      Yours in Christ

  49. Hello Don,

    You touched on a topic that has intrigued me for a while now, who the false prophet could be? I must admit as a person who was a Catholic before I was saved it was difficult to explain to others that the 2nd beast (unholy prophet) could very well be the Catholic Pope!

    I have been doing some research on this issue and one thing keeps popping up is the prophesy of St. Malachy. Let’s look at the last four Popes that he prophesied would come to lead us into the last days:

    John Paul I (1978):De medietate Lunæ (of the half of the moon)
    Hist.: Albino Luciani, born in Canale d’Agardo, diocese of Belluno, (beautiful moon) Elected pope on August 26, his reign lasted about a month, from half a moon to the next half…’ It was rumored for sometime that he was assassinated.

    John Paul II (1978-2005):De labore Solis (of the eclipse of the sun, or from the labour of the sun) Hist.: Karol Wojtyla was born on May 18, 1920 during a solar eclipse. He also comes from behind the former Iron Curtain (the East, where the Sun rises). He might also be seen to be the fruit of the intercession of the Woman Clothed with the Sun labouring in Revelation 12 (because of his devotion to the Virgin Mary). His Funeral occurred on 8 April, 2005 when there was a solar eclipse visible in the Americas.

    Benedict XVI (2005-):Gloria olivæ, The Benedictine order traditionally said this Pope would come from their order, since a branch of the Benedictine order is called the Olivetans. St Benedict is said to have prophesied that before the end of the world, a member of his order would be Pope and would triumphantly lead the Church in its fight against evil. While the Holy Father chose the name “Benedict”, this does not seem enough to fulfil the prophecy. Nor is it clear how Benedict XVI (a Bavarian) is “Glory of the Olives”. Since he is said to have remarked in the Conclave after saying he would take the name Benedict that it was partly to honour Benedict XV, a pope of peace and reconciliation, perhaps Benedict XVI will be a peacemaker in the Church or in the World, and thus carry the olive branch.

    Here’s the great mystery of St. Malachy’s prophesies concerning the Popes, it involves the last pope which is to succeed the present pope – Benedict the xvi. He has accurately predicted the last 100+ popes so if his predictions rings true then the next pope would be the last pope -In persecutione extrema S.R.E. sedebit Petrus Romanus, qui pascet oves in multis tribulationibus: quibus transactis civitas septicollis diruetur, & Judex tremêdus judicabit populum suum. Finis.
    (In extreme persecution, the seat of the Holy Roman Church will be occupied by Peter the Roman, who will feed the sheep through many tribulations, at the term of which the city of seven hills will be destroyed, and the formidable Judge will judge his people. The End.)

    Some publications say St. Malachy had in fact prophesied 111 popes which would make Benedict XVI the last pope, sometime in 1820 the 112th pope was added who would be Peter the Roman, but Malachy never stated that he would be pope but the Holy Roman Church would be occupied by Peter the Roman. Some scholars claim that since Peter the Roman was not numbered as a pope it may be that Benedict XVI and Peter the Roman are the same person.

    In 1909, while granting an audience, pope Pius X leaned back and closed his eyes. Suddenly he “awoke” and cried out: “What I see is terrifying. Will it be myself? Will it be my successor? What is certain is that the pope will quit Rome, and in leaving the Vatican, he will have to walk over the dead bodies of his priests.”
    Pius’s prophecy was fulfilled neither in his own time nor in that of the next pontiff. According to Malachy’s vision of the Church’s “tribulation,” it applies to the successor of Gloria Olivae-the next pope but one.

    It is indeed very chilling and at the same time glorious revelations as we draw so ever close to the final days. The current pope would be 83 years old on April 26th of this year, the aging pope gives little time for end times prophesies to be fulfilled.

    Is it coincidence that the current pope is the glory of the olive and Jesus gave the end times prophesy on the mount of olives? I try not to fall into that type of thinking unless it can be scripturally discerned, maybe I need to get a spiritual cupboard of my own eh? Anyway I am convinced that this is the last generation and if we were to consider things like the Jewish jubilee (50 year periods) then the next jubilee would begin 2017. 1967-2017 = 50 years, 1917-1967 = 50 years this period was a stand-off between Israel and Jordan over a strip of land known as no man’s land which Israel gained in the famous 7 day war in 1967, 1517-1917 = 8 x 50 years (400 years) of rule by the Ottoman Empire over the holy city.

    This year, on March 29-30 Passover, will be celebrated in the Hurva Synagogue in Jerusalem with reinstated lamb sacrifices which would be attended by millions of native Jews as well as Jews from all over the world who are expected to attend. The Hurva Synagogue is said to precede the third temple, and, ‘Significantly, the Jewish Rabbinate in Jerusalem has already announced that the plans for rebuilding the Jewish Temple will be presented to the nation of Israel and the Jewish people on March 16, 2010.’

    Quite alot of things seem to be happening is such rapidity that you cannot take your eyes off the word for a sec! I am online in discussions with about 13 anti-pre-trib rapture advocates and I am learning so much by their denial of the truth. I am able to dig deeper in the word and use works like what you have on your site in presenting the pre-trib position. What I do find interesting is that there seem to be some force at work that reveals some sort of inexplainable exposure of some of my fellow bloggers, i.e. one blogger was trying to promote a cult and got called on it, another was trying to use two different IDS and wound up exposing himself, and yet another had someone backing him up in all his arguments only to find out later all his supporter wanted to do was promote a website that sells cult books.

    Took a long step away from our discussions bro but I think we are led by the Holy Spirit in different directions but end up at the same destination. Thanks for letting me use some of your writings to present the pre-trib rapture doctrine as well as the personal growth I am having. God bless and be safe….

    In His Grace,

    Wes

    • Hey Wesley,

      Well, that was quite alot of interesting info regarding the prophecy of St. Malachy. I was not aware of this, so I will go and research it. In regards to who the false prophet will be, it does not take much to figure it out. The pope is the head of the biggest false Christian-claimed religious system in the world and as I am sure that you know, one only has to do a cursory reading of their beliefs before you start seeing the pagan practices of Babylon. Since Satan was getting no where by the killing of the early church, by having Constantine make christianity Rome’s official religion, so did all the pagan practices of Babylon get integrated with it. Witin the RCC we always see the portrait of Mary holding baby Jesus, when this is actually the portrait of Simiramis and Tamuz, which was just tranfered over to christianity and embraced by the RCC. Then you get into the fact that the RCC is set up exactly the opposit of what Jesus said the church should be:

      “You know that the rulers of the gentiles lord it over them, and their high officials exercise authority over them. Not so with you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant, and whoever wants to be first must be your slave–just as the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many.”

      Then we could mention many other issues pertaining to Mary who was truely a blessed woman, but they have turned her into a co-saviour, co-redeemer, sinless, pertetual virgin, assended on high, queen of heaven and mother of God. I say that when one of these popes begins to perform those counterfeit miracles, signs and wonders, the people (whose names were not written in the book of life before the world began) will be deceived into believing that this man of lawlessness is God, which is what he will be proclaiming to be and these signs are ment as proofs of that, as well as his fatal head wound and his counterfeit resurrection. Yet, by the grace of God, he still has people that are within that false religious system and I believe that it is those whom he will be calling out of it during the tribulation:

      “Then I heard another voice from heaven say: ‘Come out of her, my people, so that you will not receive any of her plagues; for her sins are piled up to heaven, and God has remembered her crimes.”

      Wow! 13 anti pre-trib debaters? You are a busy guy! I wish that I had a few more, but so far no one has bothered to respond more than once, save for you. What I have learned for the most part is that, most of these guys don’t want to know the truth and are not concerned with the scriptures that you present to them as proof, as all they want to do is prove their position and they love to persede others to join them. I was going back in forth with one of these guys that call themselves the “Sabbath Keepers” who believe that the “mark of the beast” is symbolic for observing the Sabbath on Sunday, that is, if you go to church on Sunday, you have received the mark of the beast. Yeah, I know, crazy! They make the statement that the “right hand” represents “Action” and the “Forehead” represents “Thought.” The person that I was was debating with actually told me that if a literal mark did come out that he would take it, because that is not the mark of the beast. So basically what they do is, override the literal word of God with their method of interpretation. A good rule of thumb would be not allow anthing to be implanted under your skin, especially when it has to do with buying and selling, on the principle that you would be literally fulling what is written in the word of God. I just see it now, them standing in line to get their computer chip implanted while they are patting each other on the back because they are so knowledgable of the word of God. I can just imagine them standing before God at the great white throne judgment and saying to God “You mean your word meant exactly what it said?” Yes, it meant exactly what is written, Imagine that! The problem is that today we have scholars and others symbolizing was is meant to be taken literally and vise versa and when you do that, the meaning is lost. Well anyway, on to where we left off:

      “He ordered them to set up an image in honor of the beast who was wounded by the sword and yet lived.”

      What many people don’t realize when reading this verse is that, this is in fact the abomination of desolation mentioned in description only, that is, it is not like Matthew 24:15 where Jesus calls it by name. Here it is described, but the designation is not used. This image of the beast is what is set up in the holy place within the future temple. I have my own ideas regarding what this abomination might be. It is obviously an image, which means “likeness” and denotes idolatry as I will expound on after listing the next verse:

      “He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. He also forced everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on his right hand or on his forehead, so that no one could buy or sell unless he had the mark, which it ht ename of the beast or the number of his name.”

      I included the information regarding the mark because, I believe that the image and the mark are linked. Notice the close proximity of the decription of the image and then it flows right into the description of the mark. If you read my other post entitled “The Abomination of Desolation” the information here will be a repeat. Here is what I believe to be plausible. Keep in mind that this last generation that we live in is a generation of technology. The mark of beast is in fact a technological device, a computer chip implanted subdermally to perform the same function as the debit card and that being to be able to credit and debit ones bank account via computer transaction when buying or selling, (credit and debit). Now bear with me here. John says that the false prophet was able to give breath to the image of the beast, so that it could speak and cause all who refused to worship the image to be killed. Remember, John is seeing a vision of the future and knows nothing of technology. What if in John’s vision, as it states, he hears this image speak, would he not attribute life to it for that reason? What if this image is the computer system that will ultimately be used to process the financial transactions made by the mark worldwide? It states that the false prophet ordered the inhabitants of the earth to make this image. What if a company, say IBM or some other computer manufacturer, by order of the false prophet were to manufacture a computer and for the outer casing was made in the likeness of that beast? What if when John saw this vision of this image and heard it speak, he was actually hearing a voice protocal program, would he attribute it to being alive, because he heard it speak. After all, the mark is how he is going to control the entire world! As I said, I believe that the way in which he “forces” the inhabitants of the earth to receive his mark is not by physical force, but by making the other methods of buying and selling obsolete, leaving only the mark to be able to buy and sell. People would then be “forced” to make a decision to receive it in order to live or to deny it and take their stand for Christ, because there will be no “C” or “D” choices. At that point all buying and selling would be done completely via computer transaction, credit and debit, which is what buying and selling is. In this way would not all people be worshiping his image, if the mark was controlled via the image as a computer system with his likeness as the outer casing? I know this sounds Scifi, but we have to remember what times we are living in. I don’t believe that this image is just a plain statue made out of whatever, but that it is closely linked with the mark. That is my theory anyway and just a theory.

      The mention of forcing everyone, small and great, rich and poor, free and slave to receive this mark would infer that all peoples, nations and languages, highest to lowest worldwide will be required to receive his mark in order to be able to do business of any kind. There is no question, as I am sure that you are in agreement, that the this mark is a literal mark that will go into the literal right hand or literal forehead to literally be able to buy or sell just as the word of God states it. As we have already seen, computer chips called “RFID” chips are currently being manufactured for subdermal uses, one of them being to make purchases. The technology that fits the word of God is already here and will continue to escalate leading up to that tribulation period, which is the real reason that it has come about, prophecy in the process of being fulfilled. Well, I have run out of time and must tend to work related issues. As always, I look foreward to your posts. Let me know if you need any help with those anti pre-trib guys and we’ll gang up on em, he, he….

      Yours in Christ

  50. Greetings Don,

    Regarding the mark of the beast, men receiving the mark, the number of the beast, the abomination of desolation, the image of the beast being lifelike and men compelled to worship the image or face certain death or death coming by way off not being able to buy or sell which can lead to hunger, starvation etc.

    In looking at all these variables as well as the world at this point in tribulation compounded by a miracle and wonder working false prophet who, does not raise himself up but the Antichrist who miraculously revived from death. The signs and wonders being worked by the false prophet is more than enough for people to be amazed by this man’s supernatural powers, but the Antichrist as we are told is the one who the false prophet raises up!

    Don I think there is something mysterious about this my friend. It’s like Barack Obama winning the hearts and mind of the people with his charisma and oratory skills and George Bush getting the fame! When you think about it, it’s not all difficult to understand how something like this could happen. If at the height of the presidential campaign Obama after having won the American people hearts turnaround and say that he will cast his vote for John McCain and America should do so as well. I think some people probably would be scratching their heads but if it is constantly media blasted people would do as Obama had told them because they trust him. Of course the false prophet would have some help in that a deluding spirit would be upon the already condemned unbelievers.

    About the mark, I agree that it is technological in nature and it would probably have as part of its binary ID the number 666 embedded along with the individual’s personal PIN number or something. Already in my homeland we have probably 95% of adults using Credit Cards and Bank Cards in LINX Machines and ABM machines and in some cases at the very bank counters to transact business. With identity theft (constantly media blasted), credit and bank card thefts, kidnapping and other crimes, people are always looking for newer and safer ways to protect their wealth and family’s safety. I think even without tribulation many people, if offered a subdermal implanted chip today would line up around the corner from 4am in the morning to get ‘chipped.’ I also believe the reason for two places identified is to cater for one-handed people.

    Regarding the image, for that answer I have to turn to Hollywood my friend. Most people know of the outside world or other countries from movies, documentaries, news and advertisements. The highest grossing movie of all time is AVATAR! The director of the famed Titanic Movie actually had the idea for AVATAR four years prior to Titanic. He did not create the movie then because the technology was not available until now. Being a real movie buff I have seen over the years how much influence Hollywood has on culture, politics and the society’s development as a whole, Hollywood is the test kitchen for the Devil. If the image is an AVATAR it would surely be very easy for unbelievers to accept it, it would as you said computer generated and incredibly lifelike, moreover if attached to this image is the world’s banking system, imagine the ease unbelievers would be at. After all it would be like an exclusive club – only those who receive the mark (chip) would be part of the privileged to buy/sell, take care of their needs in a world that is literally falling to pieces. If it became a requirement that when an unbeliever entered the temple that he/she bow to the AVATAR that resembles the heavily promoted Antichrist and acknowledge it as God, I don’t see them refusing!

    Let’s review; a world in chaos, the target people for submission to the Antichrist is unbelievers, a very popular false prophet wielding signs and wonders himself bowing to a slain and resurrected man who incidentally is the world’s leader and has only recently destroyed the two witnesses much to the delight of the millions of unbelievers, this leader decides to set up a lifelike image or an AVATAR of himself in his now headquarters – the third temple. People willingly accepting the mark of the beast, feeling a sense of being privileged bow down to the image that they have for sometime held up high and affirmed by the words of a powerful false prophet. It is going to happen my friend, can it happen how you have it or how I think it could – very possible given trends today.

    Looking forward to your comments on the rest of chapter 13 and these comments as well. BTW you have been helping me with my discussions with the 13, your works on your blogs are a tremendous resource for me.

    In His Grace,

    Wes

    • Greetings my friend,

      I am happy to know that my posts are being are of some bennifit and I am honored that you are referring to them.

      Just to clarify, in regards to the abomination (image), I don’t believe that it will be able to move or anything of that nature. I believe that it may be that because John hears it speak in his vision, because he makes the statement “He was given power to give breath to the image of the first beast, so that it could [speak].” So, I think that it is because he hears it speak is why he attributes life to it. After all, John does not know what a computer is and therefore, if what he did hear in his vision was a computer voice protocal program, as far as John is concerned, if something is speaking he would attribute life to it. As you know, we currently have speaking computers and the voice protocal program technology is being perfected so that it sounds less mechanical and more human. Again, this is all speculation on my part, but it is plausible. What I don’t think, is that this image is just a cement statue in the likeness of the beast and is just standing in the holy place. As I said, I believe that this image is linked to the mark. Also, regarding the mark, I believe that it will be cut and dry. Anyone whose name was written in the book of life and is for Christ, will not receive the mark, but for those whose names that were not written in the book of life from before the world began and who do not love the truth, from the poorest to the richest, they will receive that mark. Therefore, it won’t be just for the privileged, because the idea is to have all people from the highest to the lowest, poorest to the richest receive it for their destruction, as this will be the only way of doing business for the entire earth. In regards to what you said about people lining up around the corner at 4am to get theirs, well, people are and have been wilfully been receiving this implant. That club that I mentioned to you in Spain have been doing this for years now to be able to buy their drinks and one of the statments that was made in the article is that, it had become a fashion statement. I’m sure that as time goes on, we will begin to see the use of this subdermal implant popping up more and more, as it will start to run parallel with the rest of the methods of buying and selling and at some point in the future will become the only monitary system with the rest of the methods being made obsolete. No more cash, no more credit, debit or checks, just that mark!

      “This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man’s number. His number is 666.”

      I am in agreement with you in that, this numeric value will be found within the code of this computer chip. I may even be the prefix for the international banking codes.

      “Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father’s name written on their foreheads.”

      Though it is not clear, I believe that this scene may be taking place in heaven. In regards to the mention of Mount Zion, it may be that, just as there is an earthly Mount Zion, there is also heavenly Mount Zion. After all, there is an earthly “Ark of the Covenant” and there is a heavenly “Ark of the covenant” in God’s temple, as well as an earthly Jerusalem and a heavenly Jerusalem. John makes the statment, “there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion” well, John is in heaven as he was caught up in chapter 4. Since I believe that the “male child” is collectively representing the 144,000, I believe that what John is seeing is the vision of the male child after it has been snatched up to God’s throne. Notice that it is said that they have Jesus and the Father’s name written on their foreheads. This is something that was promised to “Overcomers” in the letter to the Philadelphia church, which says:

      “I will write on him the name of my God and the name of the city of My God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on him my new name.”

      The above is something that happens after being resurrected or caught up and being in the imortal state and not while in the flesh.

      “And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. None one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth.”

      Obviously, the sound that John hears like loud peals of thunder are those harpists playing their harps. This group of 144,000 is a special group to God being that they are 144,000 that come out of Israel and have been selected as the “first fruits” to God. The fact that they are a special group can be demonstarated from the fact they they alone are able to sing this new song and that everyone else is restricted from learning it. It is an honor to them and a glory to God. Notice also the statment at the end which says, “who had been [redeemed] from the earth.” This word “redeemed” would infer past tense and that they have already gone from mortal to immortal and are in heaven.

      “These are they who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure.

      I don’t believe that this is inferring that they did not have wives as some have said, because being married does not defile a man or a woman, as marriage was created by God. What I do believe is being said is that, these are they who never committed sexual immorality either while being married or while being unmarried. Most of the saved body of believers have been at one time or many times sexually immoral even after receiving Christ. Sexual desire seems to be hardest thing to overcome as it is always seems to be mentioned at the top of the list whenever the acts of the sinful nature are mentioned. And, sexual immorality is mentioned at least three times in the letters to the churches regarding the Nicholaitans, Balak and that woman prophetess Jezabel. Though sexual immorality can and is forgiven, this group of 144,00 out of Israel has never committed it. Also, the fact that it is said that “they did not defile themselves with women” would show that these 144,00 are all males, which was one of my points about them being collectively represented by the designation “male child,” but I know what your position is on this subject already and I respect that.

      “They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as firstfruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless.”

      This group is obviously very dedicated to God and to the Lamb as they follow the Lamb wherever he goes. There appears to be a couple of different groups within the saved which are the old testament saints, the Church, the 144,00 and the great tribulation saints. I don’t believe as some do, that the faithful of the old testament are to be considered as belonging to the church, that is, that the church was founded back then and after Christ came it was just a continuation. It would then make no sense when Jesus said “I will build my church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.” The words “I will build” is in the future tense, meaning something that is still to be done and not something that is on-going. The church only came into being at the time that the Lord brought it into its beginning. I wanted to make another point, though it is said that they did not defile themselves with woman and that no lie was found in their mouths, it does not mean that they were sinless. For if they were sinless, they would not have needed to be redeemed, for to be redeemed means that a randsom was paid to buy them back. Also, it would go against what is written, which says “There is none righteous, no not one. all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.” But, this group is probably the closest to perfection out of any human being when they were in their mortal state.

      Well Wesley, That would finish up chapter 14. As always, I look forward to your response and input. I don’t know what I am going to do today, but I guess I should start by taking a shower. So, until the next post then, have a blessed day!

      PS I wouldn’t mind if you shared with me some of the issues that you are coming up against with these people that you are debating with.

  51. Greetings Don,

    The discussions are quite extensive so I’ll post the links and you can review and chime in where you think you can shed some light, I am sure I’ll continue to benefit from your extensive research and knowledge:

    http://wabd.wordpress.com/2010/02/11/why-the-pre-trib-rapture-doctrine-is-opposed/

    http://endtimespropheticwords.wordpress.com/2010/01/18/harold-camping-date-sets-rapture/

    http://spiritofdiscernment.wordpress.com/2010/02/10/the-rapture-fact-or-fiction/

  52. Hello Don,

    Back to our discussions, chapter 14 is where we are at, praise God for bringing us this far and for His continued blessing as we seek to grow and dwell in the word in Jesus’ name I pray for us both.

    Coming out off chapters 12/13 we see persecutions off Jews and Gentile believers: The Jews for maintaining the Commandments of the Lord and the Gentiles for their testimony of Jesus. The Dragon through his false prophet and antichrist have together set up an abominable image of the first beast, implemented a mark to facilitate unbelievers allegiances and war is being waged on Jews and Gentiles who don’t bow to the image, or take the mark and obey the antichrist in any manner or form.

    (Rev 14:1) And I saw, and behold, the Lamb standing on the mount Zion, and with him a hundred and forty and four thousand, having his name, and the name of his Father, written on their foreheads.(Rev 14:2) And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and the voice which I heard was as the voice of harpers harping with their harps:(Rev 14:3) and they sing as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four living creatures and the elders: and no man could learn the song save the hundred and forty and four thousand, even they that had been purchased out of the earth.
    (Rev 14:4) These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb.(Rev 14:5) And in their mouth was found no lie: they are without blemish.

    I am in full agreement with your explanation of these verses for they are indeed in heaven. I think one of the key clues is that the Jewish nation has not yet cried out for Messiah in unison. (Mat 23:39) For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.

    (Rev 14:6) And I saw another angel flying in mid heaven, having eternal good tidings to proclaim unto them that dwell on the earth, and unto every nation and tribe and tongue and people;

    (Rev 14:7) and he saith with a great voice, Fear God, and give him glory; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made the heaven and the earth and sea and fountains of waters.

    Mid heaven? Where is that, and why did John specify this location?
    (Rev 8:13) And I saw, and I heard an eagle, flying in mid heaven, saying with a great voice, Woe, woe, woe, for them that dwell on the earth, by reason of the other voices of the trumpet of the three angels, who are yet to sound.
    (Rev 19:17) And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in mid heaven, Come and be gathered together unto the great supper of God;

    The term mid heaven is mentioned in three chapters only in the entire bible and all references are in the book of revelations. Could this be a world revival of faith (mid heaven) at supernatural speed, (the angel flying)? I think this is the last opportunity for the Gentiles to come to faith.

    I believe that verse {8} follows swiftly with the destruction of the kingdom of the beast – [the system that he rose to power from], the harlot (evil church) was already destroyed by the beast. It would be by God’s hand that Babylon would be destroyed.

    I’m gonna stop here for now, I am very interested for your input on chapter 14. Till we post again, be blessed.

    In His Grace,

    Wes

    • Hey Wesley and good day!

      I clicked on the links that you provided and read some posts and responded to some. I tell you, some of the things that people are coming up with is outrageous! People claiming that the “Day of the Lord” is just restricted to the day when Jesus returns. So, I posted and asked him, well, the “Day of the Lord” is also called “The hour of Trial,” so, does that mean that God is going to test the whole world in just one hour? In my post I told them that the day of the Lord begins with the opening of the first seal, followed by the trumpets and bowl judgments, as these make up the day of the Lord. We know for a fact that the seals, trumpets and bowls are how God carries out the “day of the Lord.” They are just trying to make their post-trib view fit. Many who study confuse the resurrection and catching away of 1 thes.4:16 and 1 Cor.15:51 and try to make it synonymous with the resurrection of Rev.20:4, but that resurrection is only a resurrection of the dead who come out of the great tribulation period and there are no living saints caught up at that resurrection. I think they also get stuck on the phrase “First Resurrection” adopting the idea of “One” single resurrection, which would be imposible. There are a couple of resurrections that come under the heading of the “first resurrection.” Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection, then the church at his appearing, the 144,000, the two witnesses, the great tribulation saints and those who are not mentioned are those who will be resurrected and snatched up during the millennium before those that Satan gathers march against Israel and are destroyed. The first resurrection could be stated as “the resurrections that take place prior to the last one,” which takes place at the end of the millennium, which is of the “Lost dead.”

      “Blessed and holy are those who take part in the first resurrection for on such the second death has no power.”

      Every resurrection that takes place prior to that last one falls under the heading of “First resurrection” since as I said, there are a couple of resurrections that take place prior to the one at the end of the millennium. Well then, on to the rest of chapter 14.

      “Then I saw another angel flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth–to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, ‘Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

      The verse above is another good reason as proof that the church is not here during this time period, for we already fear God and have repented and are being transformed into the image of his Son, so why would God demand that of those who have already received Christ? Why would he pour out his wrath upon believers?

      I think that I have said it before and that is, the pouring out of God’s wrath seems to be two-fold. First, the people who are caught in the tribulation will find themselves there because they did not receive Christ at the preaching of the word prior to the resurrection and catching away and now with these plagues that God will be pouring out, it is like he is using them to yell louder to get peoples attention so that they will not die and be seperated for eternity. I get this Idea from the fact that after some plagues are poured out on the earth, John says “and they still would not repent,” which would infer that this is the result that God is looking for after the plagues. The second is that, God is justly pouring out his wrath upon the Godless, the unfaithful, unrepentent and all who love to sin. God in his grace and mercy goes as far as to send an angel to proclaim the following to those left upon the earth, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come.” God is still trying to get their attention for repentance before it is too late. Man, if you’re seeing angel flying in mid-air and he is preaching the word of God to you, it doesn’t take much faith to know that God exists after seeing that. Thank God that he has allowed us to see and have faith without any of that!

      As the angel is preaching the gospel, he also reminds the people of who the creator is when he says

      “Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

      “A second angel followed and said, ‘Fallen! Fallen is Babylong the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.’ ”

      This is of course referring to the woman who rides the beast in Rev.17 & 18 who has this title written on her forehead:

      “MYSTERY BABYLON THE GREAT THE MOTHER OF PROSTITUTES AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH”

      Adulteries and prostitue are in reference to spiritual adultery, that is, against God. This was a term used when Israel would turn from God and worship other god’s, God being the husband and Israel being the wife, ergo adultery.
      The phrase “which made the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries” is in regards to the woman representing that false religious system and causing the people of the earth to partake of her adulteries, since their leader (pope) will be giving credibility to that beast who will be proclaiming himself to be God. Remember, the woman will be and is even now disquised as the church (RCC).

      “A third angel followed and said in a loud voice: ‘If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand, he, too will drink of the wine of God’s fury, which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath.

      Notice the words “In a loud voice.” He says this in a “Loud voice” as an extra effort to get people to pay close attention regarding what will happen to those who worship the beast or his image or receive his mark in their right hand or forehead. The consequence of that of course is the lake of fire and God will pour out the full strength of his wrath upon those who perform this, meaning that, there will be no mercy mixed in with his wrath, that is, it will be full strength.

      “He will be tormented with burning sulfur in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb. And the smoke of their torment rises for ever and ever. There is no rest day or night for those who worshop the beast and his image, or for anyone who receives the mark of his name.”

      The verse above is of course speaking of what takes place after the great white throne judgment. This is also a good proof for all of those people out there who say that one is not tormented forever, but are anhilated. How can the smoke of one’s torment rise forever and ever if you are anhilated? The fact is that, those lost dead who are resurrected at the end of the millennium are resurrected with that new body just as we are and therefore cannot die, but will exist in a state of torment in that new resurrected body. Notice that there is [no rest] day or night for them. The meaning of the words “No Rest” means, no intermission or cessation from the torment. Thank God that he revealed himself to us and that when sin abounds, his grace abounds all the more!

      “This calls for patient endurance on the part of the saints who obey God’s commandments and remain faithful to Jesus.”

      For the saints that will be going though the great tribulation period, it will take patient endurance to resist the beast, his image and his mark, even unto death. In fact, of these saints it is written that “They did not love their lives so much as to shrink from death.” They will lay down their lives by resisting the beast, his image and receiving his mark in order to remain faithful to Jesus and there will be many of them, for of this group John says:

      “After this I looked and there before me was a great multitude that no man could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the Lamb.”

      “Then I heard a voice from heaven, ‘Write: Blessed are the dead who die in the Lord from now on.’ ‘Yes,’ says the Spirit, ‘they will rest from their labor, for their deeds will follow them.”

      The saints who die from the middle of the seven on are blessed due to the fact that they will be on an earth where their death is almost certain by their refusing to worship the beast or his image or by receiving his mark. As the title reveals, they will be going though “Great Tribulaiton” and according to Rev.20:4 many of them will be beheaded because of their faith and because they keep the testimony of Jesus Christ. And as Jesus said in Matthew 24 regarding the great tribulation and the saints, “If those days had not be cut short, no one would survive, but for the elects sake those days will be shortened.”

      I guess that I will leave off here and continue in the next post, but to answer your question, I believe that the term “mid-air” is just that, that is, an angel was flying in mid-air or mid-sky to make his announcement. Also, I am sure that the destruction of Babylon the great will take place sometime during the last 3 1/2 years, probably after the last trumpet judgment, but before the bowls. I would make this accessment because the angel is making the announcement that Babylon the great has fallen and this, after the seventh trumpet, but before the first bowl is poured out, but I would have to do some more research on it. So, until our next post then:

      Yours in Christ

  53. Hi Don,

    Welcome to the insanity buddy! It’s amazing the interpretations that some of our brothers and sisters have about scriptures. I see you’ve already engaged Paul the Pastor/Author. I sometimes wonder if Paul is more interested in promoting his book rather than getting the truth of the word. I think he wants to be the father of a new Eschatological View with the rapture taking place somewhere between mid-trib and post trib.

    We are in chapter 14 so let’s proceed. Before I do just a brief observation; have you noticed that the references made of Christ so far in our entire discussion is that of a Lamb? It’s little observations like these that open my eyes to details of the word and how important it is to examine every single letter, word, comma, period etc. Every single detail has tremendous significance and I believe that Yeshua wants us to be vigilant in our studies and use it as we are in online discussions, we may not be able to change the hearts of our fellow commentators but at least visitors to the sites may have an opportunity to see the truth with the Holy Spirit as a guide.

    So we have Christ standing on the heavenly Mt. Zion which is on the west side of the Mt. Olive, another remarkable observation with respect to the Olivet Discourse. Three angels are basically sounding the ‘last call’ bell to signal that the chance for salvation is coming very swiftly to an end. There is something I want you to clarify for me regarding the 144,000 whom you wrote that are possibly married but I want you to look at (Rev 14:4) These are they that were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they that follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were purchased from among men, to be the firstfruits unto God and unto the Lamb. “for they are virgins.” is what I want you to pay attention to. Thanks!

    (Rev 14:8) And another, a second angel, followed, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, that hath made all the nations to drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.

    (Rev 16:19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and Babylon the great was remembered in the sight of God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

    (Rev 17:5) and upon her forehead a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    (Rev 17:18) And the woman whom thou sawest is the great city, which reigneth over the kings of the earth.

    (Rev 18:2) And he cried with a mighty voice, saying, Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great, and is become a habitation of demons, and a hold of every unclean spirit, and a hold of every unclean and hateful bird.(Rev 18:3) For by the wine of the wrath of her fornication all the nations are fallen; and the kings of the earth committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth waxed rich by the power of her wantonness.

    (Rev 18:10) standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Woe, woe, the great city, Babylon, the strong city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.(Rev 18:11) And the merchants of the earth weep and mourn over her, for no man buyeth their merchandise any more;
    (Isa 21:9) and, behold, here cometh a troop of men, horsemen in pairs. And he answered and said, Fallen, fallen is Babylon; and all the graven images of her gods are broken unto the ground.
    (Jer 51:8) Babylon is suddenly fallen and destroyed: wail for her; take balm for her pain, if so be she may be healed.
    (Jer 51:64) and thou shalt say, Thus shall Babylon sink, and shall not rise again because of the evil that I will bring upon her; and they shall be weary. Thus far are the words of Jeremiah.

    With so many prophesies about the imminent fall of Babylon, if it indeed the RCC then why do people flock so blindly to her and her churches? Yeshua did say that the last days would be like in the days of Noah! When I read the gospel about Christ’s birth, ministry and crucifixion I wondered why, with all the prophesies that accurately predicted the coming of the Messiah, did the Jews condemn Him? But when I see the word available like it was never before available and yet sin is even more rampant, then I understand.

    Babylon has to be an enormous system that bore her son the false prophet if it is a religious system such as the RCC or is she a kingdom that gave birth to the Antichrist. Most scholars believe that Babylon is the political and economic system that the Antichrist comes from and the system is destroyed by God, while the false prophet is the product of the ‘Harlot’ which is destroyed by the Antichrist. I think we’ll better understand when we get to chapters 17 and 18.

    I’m going a bit slow with this chapter because some critical views of salvation are in focus. Truthfully my heart is full when I read (Rev 15:8) And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and none was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels should be finished.

    Imagine that at this point in creation God has entered His throne room and literally closed the door. He has granted us grace for so long through His Son now He is about to pour out His wrath on mankind for not taking the opportunity to find salvation in Yeshua. It is joy and sadness at the same time, even though we all contributed in some way to God’s wrath we are all highly favored for being called to faith. Until then my friend, God bless you.

    In His Grace,

    Wes

    • Yeah, thanks for the invite among the crazies! According to pastor Paul, you and I or anyone who holds to a pre-trib belief and if we should be wrong about our interpretation, we would be deceived by the antichrist! What is that all about? If anything, no matter what view anyone holds, if we happened to be watching CNN and they announced that some guy just made a seven year peace treaty for Israel, which would also allow them to build their long awaited temple, red flags would definitely go up! What does our view on when the resurrection and catching away taking place have to do with faithfullness to Jesus? Would we all of a sudden not remember all that we studied about this antichrist? I told him that, no matter what view anyone holds regarding the resurrection and catching away, our spiritual attitude should be the same and that is that we be like Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego who would rather be thrown into the blazing fire than worship another other than our God or to sin against him. We should all have the spirit of the great tribulation saints who will not love their lives so much as to shrink from death. I just don’t understand his thinking on what our view regarding this event would have to do with our faithfullness to God? I also told pastor Paul, If I was watching CNN and there was the antichrist making his seven year covenant, I would get up and go to my room and begin to pray that God would strengthen my faith to be able to go through the things that are to follow, namely the seals, trumpets and bowls. What happens to us, do we become zombies all of a sudden and forget all that we studied?

      By the way, good point in regards to the 144,000 being virgins. I forgot about that statement. My point was that no one could be deemed defiled by being married to a woman, because God created marriage and therefore, if a man and woman are in a right marriage, they can not be defiled by being intimate. Even though the 144,000 have not married, I believe the emphasis is on the fact that they will have never committed sexual immorality, as it is so rampant and common today.

      Regarding what you said “I wondered why, with all the prophesies that accurately predicted the coming of the Messiah, did the Jews condemn Him?” I’m sure that you know the main answer to that as well, because I wonder the same thing myself. I read the prophecies like when he rode into Jerusalem on a foal and I wonder why they didn’t recognize that, as well as other prophesices that should have been apparent, but I always come back to the same answer below:

      He said, ”Go and tell this people: ” ‘Be ever hearing, but never understanding; be ever seeing, but never perceiving.’ Make the heart of this people calloused; make their ears dull and close thier eyes. Otherwise they might see with their eyes, hear with their ears, understand with their hearts, and turn and be healed.” (Isaiah 6:9-10)

      Paul says that this was done for the rest of the worlds bennifit, so that salvation would come to us. Isaiah says:

      “I revealed myself to those who did not ask for me; I was found by those who did not seek me. To a nation that did not call on my name, I said, ‘Here am I, here am I.’ All day long I have held out my hands to an obstinate people, who walk in ways not good, pursuing their own imaginations — a people who continually provoke me to my very face, offering sacrifices in gardens and burning incense on altars of brick;”

      Again is says:

      “I will call her my loved one who was not my loved one and I will call them my people who were not my people.”

      Thank God for his grace and his mercy in that we could be included in his salvation. God has not abandoned Israel and we should always pray for her.

      Yes, it is sad to see when the door closes on his grace, considering how much warning he gives the inhabitants of the earth, as well as the warnings he will be giving during the tribulation period, even sending angels out to annouce it. On then to the next verse:

      “I looked and there before me was white cloud, and seated on the cloud was one “like a son of man” with a crown of gold on his head and a sharp sickle in his hand. Then another angel came out of the temple and called in a loud voice to him who was sitting on the cloud, ” ‘Take your sickle and reap, because the time to reap has come, for the harvest of the earth is ripe.” So he who was seated on the cloud swung his sickle over the earth and the earth was harvested.

      First of all, though the title “like a son of man” is used here, I don’t believe that Jesus is in view here as being the one who is sitting on the cloud and that, for a couple of reasons. The first being, that in verse 15 is says “then another angel came out of the temple,” which would seem to infer that the one sitting on the cloud is an angel. Next, it is said that he has a crown of gold, where Jesus has many crowns (Rev.19:12). And third, I don’t believe that this would be Jesus on the cloud because the other angel is giving him a command to reap, which would be out of character. Also, there have been a few others that I have noticed that were designated as “son of man”, and I believe that was Isaiah and Daniel, but I am not positive on who it was for sure.

      There are two reapings here, the first one seems to be a positive (good) harvest, where the second one is definitely a bad havest as it is said the blood flowed out of the press as high as the horses’ bridles, so that can’t be a good thing, but more on that later. I am concerned with what this first harvest represents. This first harvest has always been one of those mysteries in Revelation that I have not yet nailed down. When something is reaped, it is cut down and then havested, which also means that it is collected or gathered in. Here with this first angel, all that is said is that he is told to reap because the harvest of the earth is ripe and then he swings his sicle over and it is havested. This almost gives me the impression that an event is taking place here, either a resurrection or a catching away, but I don’t know for sure or who that would be. But, what I do get from it is that, unlike the second reaping that follows, this first reaping seems to be a good harvest. Any ideas on what this represents?

      “Another angel came out of the temple in heaven, and he too had a sharp sickle. Still another angel, who had charge of the fire, came from the altar and called in a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle. ” ‘Take your sharp sickle and gather the clusters of grapes form the earth’s vine, because its grapes are ripe.’ ” The angel swung his sickle on the earth, gathered its grapes and threw them into the winepress outside the city, and blood flowed out of the press, rising has high as the horses bridles for a distance of 1,600 stadia.”

      As I said above, this is definitely a bad harvest. I believe that this may be in reference to all those that will be gathered in the valley of Megiddo for the battle of Armageddon where all those kings, generals and all their armies will be gathered by those three evil spirits of Rev.16:13 that look like frogs that come out of the mouths of the dragon, the beast and the false prophet who gather together the kings of the whole world and their armies to that place. This is where the double-edged sword procedes from the Lord’s mouth (word of God) and all of those kings, generals and all who there fall dead and the birds eat their flesh.

      Well, I look foreward to your input on this, so until the next post, God’s grace and his mercy be upon you and your family.

      Yours in Christ

  54. Greetings & God’s Blessings,

    Well my friend at least you got a ringside seat at the loony gallery and are privileged to be a part of the insanity (LOL).

    Thanks for clearing up the question on the possible marriage of the 144,000. It reinforces the sanctity of marriage and the marital bed especially in these times where sex seems to be the tool of trade next to money and power. It is amazing how many references there are in the bible about perverted sexual activities, while the verse is reasonably short it has very deep meanings.

    (Rev 14:14) And I saw, and behold, a white cloud; and on the cloud I saw one sitting like unto a son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand sharp sickle.
    To your list of Isaiah and Daniel I will add Ezekiel. (Eze 39:1) And thou, son of man, prophesy against Gog…. . However I believe that it is Christ and I’ll attempt to show why I think it is Yeshua.

    (Rev 14:15) And another angel came out from the temple, crying with a great voice to him that sat on the cloud, Send forth thy sickle, and reap: for the hour to reap is come; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
    Here’s why I say it is Christ, the angel came out of the temple where God resides, the angel is not commanding Yeshua rather he is passing on instructions from God the Father to Christ. We know from scriptures that angels minister to the faithful as well did they minister to Christ. Keep in mind angel in Hebrew is messenger.

    (Rev 14:16) And he that sat on the cloud cast his sickle upon the earth; and the earth was reaped.
    While this is symbolic, it represents an actual event that will soon come. It is Christ who swings the first sickle, who is being reaped possibly can be explained in the following parable – (Mat 13:24) Another parable set he before them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man that sowed good seed in his field:
    (Mat 13:25) but while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares also among the wheat, and went away.(Mat 13:26) But when the blade sprang up and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also.(Mat 13:27) And the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst thou not sow good seed in thy field? whence then hath it tares?(Mat 13:28) And he said unto them, An enemy hath done this. And the servants say unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up?(Mat 13:29) But he saith, Nay; lest haply while ye gather up the tares, ye root up the wheat with them.(Mat 13:30) Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of the harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather up first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them; but gather the wheat into my barn.
    There are two groups possibly being reaped; either believers or unbelievers, the other verses reveals this mystery-

    (Rev 14:17) Another angel came out from the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
    This angel that comes out of God’s temple is armed not with instructions but a sickle to do the other reaping.

    (Rev 14:18) And another angel came out from the altar, he that hath power over fire; and he called with a great voice to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Send forth thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
    Here we have an angel instructing the previous angel who is armed with a sickle, remember Christ swung the first sickle but there is another angel with a sickle. I believe that the first ones are believers who have been martyred and Christ is the one doing the gathering. On the other hand the angel with the sickle is commanded to reap unbelievers.

    (Rev 14:19) And the angel cast his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vintage of the earth, and cast it into the winepress, the great winepress, of the wrath of God.
    This is setting the scene after the gathering of the great tribulation saints, grace as we have seen earlier is swiftly coming to an end and the gathering of the GT saints clearly typifies this. The second reaping or the reaping done by the angel with sickle should not be viewed as a sequential event though. When Christ returns the world would largely be unbelievers save for the nation of Israel who in the last day would be turning to Christ.

    (Rev 14:20) And the winepress was trodden without the city, and there came out blood from the winepress, even unto the bridles of the horses, as far as a thousand and six hundred furlongs.
    This is the gory details of the mass of unbelievers’ faith at the end of tribulation. So there are basically two reaping – Christ removing believers and the angel with his sickle reaping unbelievers.

    As a side note, we can also look at the separating of the sheep and the goats as another parable that can tell us about the reaping. The above verses are sometimes referred to as the rapture but it is not because it represents the end of evangelism, while the rapture removes the church, evangelism does not cease at the rapture as scriptures clearly show saints are being martyred throughout the tribulation period having come to faith during tribulation itself. This is synonymous with the entire theme of the chapter which is the swift end to opportunity for salvation with the first reaping being done by Christ Himself of martyred believers.

    I’ll close off chapter 14 now and continue onto chapter 15 in the next post immediately.

  55. Hello again,

    I hope you don’t mind me jumping straightway into chapter 15. I see this as a transitional chapter or the back end of mid trib. The last transition chapter was chapter 11 which brought us into the meat of mid trib.

    (Rev 15:1) And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having seven plagues, which are the last, for in them is finished the wrath of God.

    (Rev 15:2) And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire; and them that come off victorious from the beast, and from his image, and from the number of his name, standing by the sea of glass, having harps of God.

    (Rev 15:3) And they sing the song of Moses the servant of God, and the song of the Lamb, saying, Great and marvellous are thy works, O Lord God, the Almighty; righteous and true are thy ways, thou King of the ages.

    (Rev 15:4) Who shall not fear, O Lord, and glorify thy name? for thou only art holy; for all the nations shall come and worship before thee; for thy righteous acts have been made manifest.

    (Rev 15:5) And after these things I saw, and the temple of the tabernacle of the testimony in heaven was opened:

    (Rev 15:6) and there came out from the temple the seven angels that had the seven plagues, arrayed with precious stone, pure and bright, and girt about their breasts with golden girdles.

    (Rev 15:7) And one of the four living creatures gave unto the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever.

    (Rev 15:8) And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and none was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels should be finished.

    God our creator made a world that we cannot even fathom its share size, and we a talking about 1,000 upon 1,000 of years in this world filled with sin imagined and unimaginable. I see the bowl judgments as the payment for all sin from the very first to the last but God put on Christ the wrath that was due to those whom God called from even before the beginning.

    All our wrath was is these bowls, Christ got it for the chosen all at one time and that probably reduced the venom of God’s wrath in the final bowl judgments. What is left cannot be further reduced, that time is come and gone and its end is represented in the last verse – (Rev 15:8) And the temple was filled with smoke from the glory of God, and from his power; and none was able to enter into the temple, till the seven plagues of the seven angels should be finished.

    The second half of tribulation is assured judgments and there is not much to discuss with respect to time as we had in the first half with the aid of the old testament prophets. Woe woe woe my friend for those whose name are not written in the Book of Life. Can you imagine a world without God my friend? A world that has eons upon eons of disgusting sin being tolerated by the Creator even after He poured a great measure of it on His only begotten Son for our sake or everyone who accepts Christ’s sacrifice on the cross.

    Stay in God’s divine grace and love….

    In His Grace,

    Wes

  56. Hey Bro,

    Just caught up with the exchange that is going on with Oliver, Paul, Craig, Deborah and your goodself. What can I say man ha ha ha. Paul and Craig are not readily convinced because they are spiritually blinded. I’ve resorted to asking them some pretty straight forward questions and they avoid answering them straight, they pull out some pretty whacked theories and change the subject as fast as possible.

    Keep at it though, I’m learning alot!

    • Hey, what’d you get me in to? Ha! I’ve been in these debates before. Try having it with those who believe
      that the mark of the beast represents the observance of the Sabbath on Sunday. I tell ya man, Paul is off in the twilight zone!
      I just responded to one of his posts to Oliver and Paul has Satan and his angels being cast out of heaven before the 4th seal.
      I had to comment on that because it is very clear that they are cast out after the seven trumpet is blown.
      His verson of everything is so twisted that nothing that he says is according to scripture, maybe bits and pieces.
      He also said that the 144,000 were the ones that are cared for 1,260 days and I had to tell him that it is the woman
      (unbelieving Israel) that is cared for in the Judean wilderness, not 144,000. I also dropped the Male child equals the
      144,000 bombshell, which we know that you do not agree with (yet), but I had to do it. So I’m sure that I will catch flak on that.
      Heck, we catch flak for the obvious too! It will be interesting after all is said and done to see exactly how these prophecies
      play out. So far, Oliver seems to be right on, but I haven’t read all that he believes in yet. We’ll see…..

      I will keep contending and you do the same. I’m always learning as well.

      • Blessings Wesley!

        Listen, I saw Paul’s hostile response to you, but don’t let it get you down. He is the one who doesn’t know what he is talking about. I prayed about this after I read the post, regarding on how we ought to view those with different interpretations regarding this rapture issue. Where do we draw the line in regards to teachings? Yes, they believe that Jesus came from the Father, was crucified, buried, resurrected and accended to the Father’s right hand. Do we consider them as brothers or as false teachers and therefore, unbelievers? I think about people like Hank Hennigraph who teaches that the book of Revelation has been fulfilled and that it is not to be taken literally, but should be viewed as hyperbole, poetic and symbolic. Basically, all that is written is to be viewed as exagerated and not to be taken literally. So, when I hear these teachings, I’m concerned as to how I should view these people. One part of me says, if a person is believing and teaching that the seals, trumpets and bowls of Revelation are not to be taken literally, then the true meaning is lost for them and those they teach, which makes me think that this could be considered as taking away from the word of God and you know what God’s word says about those who add to or take away from the book of Revelation. The other part of me says, they believe in the gospel, but are they my brothers and sisters? I can’t have fellowship with them in regards to the things written in revelation, because we are not in agreement. So, I pray about those things, because I don’t want to be guilty of hating my brother, but at the same time, are they still my brother?

        It is interesting that when Paul wrote to Timothy, he told him to avoid godless chatter and then Paul identified it as being performed by Hymenaeus and Philetus, who said they had wandered away from the truth by claiming that the resurrection had already taken place and by that teaching they were destroying the faith of some. Notice that Paul puts them in a negitive light. By the way, the verse that I am referring to is also a good proof to present regarding a pre-trib resurrection and catching away, for why would someone that was teaching that the resurrection had already taken place destroy someones faith? The answer is, the same reason that the Thessalonians wrote paul and were concerned. By someone teaching that resurrection had already taken place, for those who were waiting for Christ’s appearing were still on the earth, that is, not caught up and since they were still here the only thing they would have to look foreward to was the wrath of God, which would follow the resurrection and catching away. In other words, “Hey Paul, some men are saying that the resurrection has already taken place and I’m still here, what gives? How come we are still here?

        Anyway, for you and I and others as well, this teaching regarding the resurrection and catching away is cut and dry. It is easy to present in basic understanding:

        1. “He will confirm a covenant with many for one ‘seven.’ In the middle of the seven he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing of the temple, he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him.”

        This establishes the beginning of the seven year period and the breaking of his covenant in the middle.

        2. “How long will it be before these astonishing things are fulfilled? The man clothe int he linen, who was above thewatersof the river, lifted his right hand and his left hand toward heaven, and I heard him swear by him who lives forever, saying, ” ‘It will be for a time, times, and half a time. When the power of the holy people has been finally broken, all these things will be completed.’ ”

        This time, times and half a time (3 1/2 years) is counted from the middle of the seven, until the end when Christ returns, which also estabishes the seven years, with the return of Christ completing the seven years, which is also confirmed in Rev.19:11-21.

        So we have the beginning of the seven with the beast making his covenant and the return of Christ at the end of the seven.

        Within the seven we have the wrath of God, also desgingated as the “day of the Lord,” which is carried out by the seven seals, trumpets and bowls.

        Then we have Paul saying:

        “For God did not appoint us to suffer wrath, but to receive salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ.” (1 Thes.5:9)

        And

        “and to wait for his Son from heaven whom he raised from the dead–Jesus who rescues us from the coming wrath.”
        (1 Thes.1:10)

        So, we have seven year covenant of peace, with the ruler breaking it in the middle and we have Jesus reutuning 3 1/2 after the covenant is broken. During this seven years we have God pouring out his wrath in the form of the seals, trumpets and bowls also know as the day of the Lord with Jesus returning sometime after seventh bowl. Then we have Paul stating that we are not appointed unto God’s wrath and also that Jesus rescues us from that coming wrath. Therefore, the only thing that we would have to establish is when within that seven year period does the wrath of God begin, Because, once we establish that, since we know that we are not appointed unto God’s wrath, we therefore would have to be caught up before that wrath begins. So basically, it is just a matter of proving to others when that wrath begins and the timing of the resurrection and catching away will just fall into place. Well, for you I that makes perfect sense, but it seems that these other people are bent on resisting the truth to the end. Anyway, I just thought that I wold share that with you.

        There are some who, in order to make there interpretation for the timing of the resurrection, say that only the seven bowls are to be considered as God’s wrath and not the seals nor the trumpets, but I found some verses that kill that whole belief, said verse being right in Revelation 15:1:

        “I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues–last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.”

        This should be apparent to you right away. Since John says that he saw the seven angels with the seven [last] plagues, in identifing the the seven bowls as “Last,” this would infer that there was wrath prior to these seven bowls. Using a simple example, it would be like saying “After long while, John was the last person to cross the finish line.” Since John was the last person to cross finish line, this would infer that others had crossed it before him. Do you see where I am going with this? The same is true here, by saying that the bowls that these angels have are last plagues and that they complete the wrath of God, this would infer that wrath took place prior to the bowls, which of course would be the seals and trumpets because the seals were first, then the trumpets, then the bowls. So, after the seals and the trumpets, the bowls are last plagues and they complete God’s wrath.

        So, now that we have established the seven year period and the time of God’s wrath and the fact that we are not appointed unto that wrath, we have to be gone before it starts. Don’t you just love the Holy Spirit! I’m still waiting for your response to my previous post.

        Yours in Christ

    • Well Wesley, it has been an interesting week so far, phewww. Hope all is going well with you. From just the exposure that I have had this week, I have narrowed down the crux of the problem between pre and post trib views. The first and foundational problem is as follows, but first I am going to list a legend with short names so that I don’t have to continually type the names out:

      1. Resurrection and Catching Away (RCA): Jesus returning and meeting the church (dead and living) in the air, I bid – to
      fulfill the promise in John 14:1-3, which is to take us back to the Father’s house.

      2. Second Coming (SC): Jesus physical, visual return to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom.

      3. Day of the Lord (DOTL): Also called the wrath of God and the hour of trial, represented by the seven seals, trumpets,
      bowls and including the second coming where his wrath is completed with the double-edged sword.

      Now, in regards to the crux of the problem between the pre-trib and post-trib views. Those of the post-trib persuasion, view the RCA as synonymous with the SC. That is, since the description found in 1 Thes.4:16 has the Lord descending from heaven, they automatically relate that descending with his desending at the second coming to the earth. The problem is that, the event of the RCA and the SC are both seperate events. In the RCA, the Lord is descending from heaven to meet (IN THE AIR ONLY), the resurrected and those living that are caught up and to take them back to the Father’s house.

      While the purpose of the SC is Christ’s physical and visual return to the earth to dispose of the beast and the false prophet in the lake of fire, to slay all of those kings, their generals, horses and all their armies that will be gathered there, as well as all those whom the angels will bring back (one taken), to have Satan thrown into the Lake of fire and to set up his millennial kingdom.

      Somewhere along the line, someone related these two events as the same event and in order to make that work, we come to the second spin-off problem and that being the interpretation that the DOTL (wrath of God) is only one day in duration and does not include the seals, trumpets and bowls as part of that wrath. Reason for this is, if they admit that the seals, trumpest and bowls are synonymous with the DOTL, they know that these judgments span serveral years and since they believe what Paul said “we are not appointed to suffer wrath,” the wrath then has to be one day, which is the day Jesus returns. This way, they can claim that since the wrath, which is the DOTL, is only one day, then the RCA can take place just before that wrath making it post-trib.

      Now, the thrird spin-off problem is that because of the previous errors, they recognize the saints mentioned in Mt.24 and the great tribulation saints in Revelation as the church. That is why pastor Paul keeps making reference to the church as being those saints in Mt.24 and making the church the great tribulation saints as well.

      As long as they or anyone else recognize the Resurrection and Catching Away as being the same event as the Second Coming of Christ to the earth, there can be no winner in this debate, unless of course there is someone that is actually looking for the truth and is listening. Pastor Paul is like someone with a puzzle with all the pieces sitting in front of him and he just starts sticking pieces together even if they don’t fit. His explanation of things gives me a headache because they have no rhym or reason. As far as prophecy goes, Paul might as well be one of those guys that believes that the book of Revelation is to be considered hyperbole, poetic and symbolic with no literal meanings. Now, where were we in Revelation?

      Oh yeah, I believe that I had reservations as to whether or not the one who was “like a son of man” sitting on the cloud as being the Lord or another angel. I was leaning more to him being another angel because of the fact that after intoducing him as “like a son of man” it is followed by the phrase “another angel came out of the temple,” which would seem to infer that by saying “another angel” that he that was sitting on the cloud was also an angel. And I believe that we both agreed that this first harvest was a good harvest, a type of resurrection, because harvesting has to do with gathering the crops.

      In regards to the second harvest, I believe that we were also in agreement that it was a bad harvest, since it was stated that after he swung his sickle the grapes (people) were gathered together and thrown into the great winepress of God’s wrath (not good) and trampled outside the city where the blood flowed as high as the horses bridle for a distance of 1600 stadia or the equivalent of 180 miles. This I believe is related to all those kings, generals, armies, their horses and all men small and great being killed in the valley of Megiddo (Armegeddon). Now that we are caught up, on to the next…..

      “I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven last plagues–last, because with them God’s wrath is completed.”

      Well my friend, it is made obvious here in this verse that the seals, trumpets and bowls are cronological in order if anyone ever questioned that, because it is stated that these seven angels have the seven “last” plagues and that they complete God’s wrath. This would infer that the previous seals and trumpets were also part of God’s wrath and that they were as I said, chronological, that is, seals one through seven, then trumpets one through seven and now bowls one through seven, with the pouring out of the seventh bowl ending God’s wrath, besides what Jesus does when he comes which is not apart of the bowl judments, but is still wrath.

      “And I saw what looked like a sea of glass mixed with fire, and standing beside the sea, those who had been victorious over the beast and his image and over the number of his name.”

      In regards to this “sea of glass” I believe that in Ezekiel’s vision in heaven, when he is describing the four living creatures which John also described, he also mentions and expanse. Check it out.

      “Spread out above the heads of the living creatures was what looked like an expanse, sparkling like ice, and awesome.”
      (Ezekiel 1:22)

      John calls it a “sea of glass” and Ezekiel calls it an “expanse sparkling like ice.” I believe that these two may be synonymous. What John and Ezekiel have in common in the vision is this sea of Glass and the four living creatures. Also, we know from the verse above that those who are standing beside this sea of glass are those who came out of the great tribulation as it is mentioned that they had been victorious over the beast and his image and his mark. And since we know that the beast makes war against the saints from the middle of the seven until Christ returns and his image and mark come out at mid-trib also, this also would tell us that these are the saints that come out of the great tribulation. This is the same group that are in view in Rev.7:9-17:

      “Then one of the elders asked me, ” ‘These in white robes–who are the, and where did they come from?’ ” I answered, ” ‘Sir, you know.’ ” And he said, ” ‘These are they who have come out of the great tribulation; they have washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.”

      The great tribulation saints are also mentioned in Rev.20:4:

      “I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony for Jesus and because of the word of God. They had not worshiped the beast or his image and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. They came to life and reigned with Christ a thousand years.”

      “They held harps given them by God and sang the song of Moses the servant of God and the song of the Lamb:

      ” ‘Great and marvelous are your deeds, Lord God Almighty. Just and true are your ways, King of the ages. Who will not fear you O Lord, and bring glory to your name? For you alone are holy. All nations will come and worship before, for your righteous acts have been revealed.’ ”

      How awesome is that, they were given harps by God! Notice also that it is stated that they sang the song of Moses the servant of God, servant as in present tense, that is, currently a servant, not was a servant. He’s not the God of the dead, but the God of the living! This is the second song that they are recorded as singing, the first was in Rev.7:9-10:

      “After this I looked an there before me was a great multitude that no one could count, from every nation, tribe, people and language, standing before the throne and in front of the Lamb. They were wearing white robes and were holding palm branches in their hands. And they cried out in a loud voice:

      “Salvation belongs to our God, who sits on the throne, and to the Lamb.”

      The comment “a great multitude that no one would count” would give us and idea of how many will be killed during the great tribulation. That fact that John says “a great multitude that no one could count” would mean an awful lot, because he previously mention the numbers 144,000 and 200 million, so we know that the number is way above those numbers.

      “After this I looked and in heaven the temple, that is, the tabernacle of the Testimony, was opened. Out of the temple came the seven angels with the seven plagues. The were dressed in clean, shining linen and wore golden sashes around their chests. Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the wrath of God who lives for ever and ever.”

      This is interesting here, in that, the post-tribbers will use this to make there view fit claiming that only the bowl judments are to be considered to be the wrath of God and that, because it is said that one of the four living creatures gives the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the [wrath of God]. In This way they try and make the seals and trumpets not the wrath of God and thus have the church going through the seals and trumpet jugdments . They are little deceivers aren’t they?! This doesn’t fly of course, because it was previously said in Rev.15:1 that these are the seven “LAST” plagues–last because with them God’s wrath is completed, which as I stated earlier, that if these are the seven last plagues, there were plagues prior to the bowls, otherwise you wouldn’t use the word “last.” This means that there are plagues prior to these last seven and these bowls are just bringing his wrath to completion and therefore, the seals and trumpets are the previous plagues with the bowls bringing his wrath to completion. They don’t think that we can figure this stuff out! They remind me of Joran Van Der Sloot, making it up as you go along and if it doesn’t fit change your story.

      Well, this is a bit bigger than usual post, but I couldn’t stop writing, so I’ll stop here. As always, I look forward to your input and I will see you out on the debate field. Nice postings by the way.

      Yours in Chirst

  57. Greetings Don,

    The pre, mid and post trib doctrines have indeed caused some rift amongst Christians. You have highlighted a couple of the problems with the mid and post trib doctrines and I would add the issue of the first resurrection to the list. They have merged the RCA and SC into one event, and to explain the puzzle of Jesus coming like a thief in the night they say it’s for those who are in spiritual darkness.

    Saints are one massive unit of dead people to them, oh yeah! All of us who believe in and declare Jesus as Lord are to be slain for our testimony! We have two witnesses literally pissing of the Antichrist and his minions to the point they party like its Christmas when they are killed, but a world filled with Christians armed with the knowledge of the word and indwelt by the Holy Spirit would be killed like some cockroaches.

    Then there is the issue of the Day of the Lord, as you have pointed out (BTW thanks) in (Rev 15:1) And I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvellous, seven angels having seven plagues, which are the last, for in them is finished the wrath of God.’ It’s the last set of 7 judgments, therefore in order for there to be a last it must have a first. How difficult is this my friend! These doctrines that they preach is like telling a child to cross the freeway and look out for the tail-lights of the vehicles.

    Oh yeah, the resurrection issue, there are only 2 resurrections: the first resurrection which would happen either at mid-trib or just before the SC. The second resurrection is after the 1,000 year reign. When you become a mid-tribber or a post tribber is one of the factors a loss of common sense followed by a loss of reasoning? The 144,000 were called the first fruits of resurrection just as Christ was the first fruit of resurrection. Maybe they see Christ as 144,000 different Jews? This is so simple, if I asked, Don where did you dine last night? And you said, ‘at my favorite restaurant Wes.” Then I asked Tom,where did you dine last night? And he said, ‘at my favorite restaurant Wes.” Does it mean that you both dined at the same place? Not necessarily, but both of you in fact had dinner at restaurants. The first resurrection is a type reserved for the Church Saints, early, mid and great trib saints. It takes place over a period of time. You could have eaten at 7pm and Tom at 8pm, you both ate!

    If I say to the mid and post tribbers that Satan’s wrath is what God has destined for that time. They would probably burn a cross on my front yard and call me a heretic. Most Christians don’t fully understand God’s sovereignty over HIS creation.(Isa 45:5) I am the LORD, and there is none else, there is no God beside me: I girded thee, though thou hast not known me: (Isa 45:6) That they may know from the rising of the sun, and from the west, that there is none beside me. I am the LORD, and there is none else. (Isa 45:7) I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.’ When I try to explain that even Satan’s wrath is part and parcel of God’s wrath, they still want to draw lines in the sand as if the Devil can do what he wants without God’s permission. I think maybe this is a bit too high for them to grab since they cannot come to terms with the obvious.

    Also there is the scoff that they give us because we say that salvation comes from God and cannot be lost or taken away by our actions of sin. Noooooo, when we sin Jesus pulls out His eraser and removes our names from the book of life and when we repent, we are penciled back in according their logic. I’ve asked them if the Apostle Paul is forgotten by God and received no answer because Paul contended that he sinned even after he was saved, (Rom 7:17) So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me. (Rom 7:18) For I know that in me, that is, in my flesh, dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me, but to do that which is good is not. (Rom 7:19) For the good which I would I do not: but the evil which I would not, that I practise. (Rom 7:20) But if what I would not, that I do, it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.

    Probably the most idiotic argument of all is there is no such term as ‘rapture’ in the bible, there is no such term as bible either. I’ve resorted to giving them options: pre-trib rapturo, pre-trib rapio, pre-trib caught up or pre-trib catching away. It’s pretty amusing that for a term that does not exist, they defend their mid-trib rapture and post trib rapture.

    The foolishness goes on to the bible does not have any evidence of a secret pre-trib rapture! So I guess the Apostle Paul and the rest of us are long overdue for our mental check-up… What secret? For centuries as early as 373 AD Ephraem the Syrian was advocating the pre-trib rapture…”In On the Last Times, the Antichrist, and the End of the World, he wrote: For all the saints and elect of God are gathered, prior to the tribulation that is to come, and are taken to the Lord lest they see the confusion that is to overwhelm the world because of our sins.(This ancient text was found in 1995 by researcher and author Grant R. Jeffrey.) I have heard that a post trib pastor offered 500K to anyone who can produce evidence of a pre-trib rapture by the early church fathers. He was supplied with the testimony of Ephraem the Syrian and is yet to pay. Hmmm!

    BTW Pastor Paul is no match for the word of God, I’ve rebuked the false doctrines he is spewing to sell his book and he calls me ‘evil’ and other demonic terms. I wonder when the tribulation comes and his followers turn to him for an explanation of why so many Christians are missing, would he call them evil as well and rat them out to the beast and his minions? I’ve given him something to think about in my response to his loose cannon comments. Check it out when you can.

    Having read your comments on chapter 15, I think we are ready to proceed to chapter 16.

    In His Grace,

    Wes

  58. Greetings Don,

    I know we are coming up on your 12 hour stint at work so I just wanted to drop this note for you to consider whenever you get a break.

    As we are about to get into chapter 16 of our study of the Book of Revelations and other scriptures, and together with my comments at the close of chapter 15 – “The second half of tribulation is assured judgments and there is not much to discuss with respect to time as we had in the first half with the aid of the old testament prophets.” This has been niggling me a bit as I believe there is a purpose to God’s word in every single detail. I guess what I’m trying to say is that we may need to take a different approach from here on to the end.

    We already utilize the plain sense literal interpretation of scriptures and where symbols or signs are used we know the full explanation is available either in the same verse or somewhere else in the Bible. I believe that we conflate the scriptures to reveal the symbolic texts and do not use allegorical interpretations. With this approach we have a good head start, we just need to find the other component that would, like the clues given in Daniel, Isaiah, Joel, Matthew, Thess, Corinthians etc, gave us to understand the first half of tribulation up to the mid-point.

    In some of my defenses of the pre-trib rapture I explained to my opponents that the trumpet in 1Thess 4 and 1Cor 15 are not the same as the trumpet judgments, in fact it is in relation to the shofar blown when the groom comes to collect his betrothed bride in accordance with the wedding festival. What if there is something more to this? As faith would have it, there are several Jewish celebrations/festivals given to them by God for observance at appointed times and therefore they are biblically known as Feasts of the Lord or God’s feasts.

    For example:
    Christ perfectly fulfilled the Passover by being sacrificed on the very day of Passover – He became the Lamb that was given up for our sins and redemption to God.

    Just three days after another festival called the Feast of Firstfruits. This is the day when the wave sheaf of barley was presented towards heaven by the high priest in Ancient Israel. It is always on a Sunday, seven weeks before Pentecost Sunday (Lev 23:11). As you know, right after Jesus was resurrected Mary Magdalene met him first and he warned her, “don’t touch me” because he was about to ascend to “our God and Father” (John 20:17). This ascension he refered to in advance is often missed because it is overshadowed by “The Ascension” recorded in Acts 1:1-11. But there is no mistaking that he ascended that day (John 20:17) returning by that evening (John 20:19).

    Don, I think that these feasts are clues to the understanding of Revelations, Paul said in (Col 2:16) ‘Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of a feast day or a new moon or a sabbath day: (Col 2:17) which are a shadow of the things to come; but the body is Christ’s.’ I googled Jewish Holidays and Festivals and got a list of the Lord’s Feasts plus some Jewish Feasts.

    The 3 “pilgrimage feasts”,when Jews went to the Temple at Jerusalem, like Jesus did, are Passover, Pentecost, and the Feast of Tabernacles, the 3 of them related to the Exodus of Egypt.

    1- “Passover” (“Pesach”):
    It is central to Jewish worship and religion. In spring (March-April), commemorates the liberation from the Egypt slavery and the pass of the Red See.
    – Moses instructed the people of Israel to smear the doors and lintels of their homes with blood, and the angel of destruction “passed over” the firstborn of Israel in order to slay the firstborn of the Egyptians (Ex.12).
    – It is the “Day of Independence” of Israel, celebrated, not with fireworks, but with adoration to God, starting with a good, joyful, family, Seder meal on the first night… During this Seder meal Jesus celebrated the “Last Supper” and instituted the Eucharist on the third cup of wine.

    “Feast of the Unleavened Bread”:
    For 7 days after the Passover is celebrated the “Feast of Unleavened Bread” (Massot), at the same time that Christians celebrate the “Holy Week”, the passion and resurrection of Christ, that also lies at the heart of Christianity. The bread is “unleavened” because the Jews did not had time to make normal bread with the haste of the Passover… the bread of the Eucharist is also unleavened, like the one used by Jesus in the Last Supper.

    “First Fruits”, is the last day; each one gives to the Lord the First Fruit of the year: The first lamb, the first fruit of each tree… – The Passover is the Religious “New Year”.

    2- “Pentecost” (“Shavuoth”):
    “Pento”: 50… 50 days after the Passover. Judaism commemorates the day God gave the 10 Commandments to Moses at Mount Sinai (Lev.23)…
    – In Christianity, it is celebrated at about the same time (May or June), when the Holy Spirit came to the Apostles, and God put the Law, not in stone, but in their hearts, the Low-of-Love of Jesus Christ, as prophesied by Jerem. 36.

    3- “Feast of Tabernacles” (“Sukkot”):
    It is the third “pilgrimage feast”: An 8 day festival on September, remembering the 40 years the Israelites wandered through the wilderness after the Exodus from Egypt.
    Jews live for 8 days on booths (sukkah), without electricity, they have a good wonderful time that unites the family, and when they go home they appreciate more what God have given them now a days.

    4-“Rosh Ha-Shanah” (“head of the year”), or New Year Festival:
    In late September or October; it is also called the “Feast of the Trumpets”, because the ram’s horn (“shofar”) is blown in the synagogue summoning men for the period of 10 days to do penance and forgiveness, to start a new life. It is a period of divine judgment in which the fate of the world in the coming year ahead is determined. The Jews eat “sweet foods”, a symbol of the good year to come, and “celebrate” to show that they are confident of God’s mercy.

    5- “Yom Kippur” or “Day of Atonement”:
    It is the last day of the Rosh-Hashanah, the most solemn day of the year, the only one day that the High Priest could go into the Holy of Holies to ask forgiveness of the previous year, and blessings for the ensuing year, as a renew commitment to God is made. It is a 24 hour period mostly spent in the synagogue.

    – The “Feast of the Tabernacles”, already commented, is 5 days after the Yom Kippur.

    6- “Hanukkah”:
    An 8 day “Feast of Lights”, on November or December, around Christmas time, also called the “Feast of Dedication of the Temple”, to celebrate the liberation and purification of the Temple by the Maccabees (1Macc.4, 2Macc.10).
    At that time, with a little oil, miraculously, they could maintain the lights of the candles on for 8 days. Now the light a candle every day. A joyful time exchanging gifts, and giving money to the poor.

    7- “Purim” (“Feast of Lots”):
    A carnival-like festival, around the time of the Christian Carnival, on February or March. Commemorates the events of the book of Esther 9, when the “lots” were exchanged:
    The Jews were saved from the designs of the villainous Persian Haman, and instead, the “cursed Haman” was killed, thanks to the intervention of the Queen Esther and her step-father “blessed Mordecai”. Whenever Haman’s name is mentioned the congregation boo and stamp their feet. They send gifts of food to each other and give charity to the poor.

    8- “Tish’ah be’Av”, in July, remembers the destruction of the Temple in 70 AC.

    9- “Simchat Torah”, a few days after the Feast of Tabernacles, in October, is a thanksgiving day for the Torah given to Moses, a feast of joy.

    10- “Rosh Chodesh”, a minor festival at the beginning of each month.

    11- In the modern times, a number of new festivals have been introduced, associated with the modern state of Israel: “Israel Independence Day”, “Jerusalem Day”… and in relation to the Nazi Holocaust, “Holocaust Remembrance Day.

    12- “Sabbatical Year” (Lev.25), every “seven years”, it is like a Sabbath, “rest” without work, and adore God with thanksgiving… but for one full year!.

    13- “Year of Jubilee” (Lev.25), every 49 years, 7×7; it is like a “Sabbatical Year”, but now all land was returned to the original owner.

    The Jews know how to have Feasts, and “rest”… every Sabbath, and every 7 years!
    … and they are very industrious people!…
    … they should be imitated!

    Jewish Feasts, calendar, the Sabbath
    Leviticus 3: Yom Kippur, Day of Atonement, Trumpets, Jesus our Lamb, our High Priest, His Second Coming
    Leviticus 5b: Passover, Unleavened Bread, First Fruits, Pentecost, Rosh Hashanah, Yom Kippur, Tabernacles (Sukkot)
    Leviticus 6: Purim, Hanukkah, Sabbatical Year, Jubilee Year, Jewish Weddings, Bar Mitzvah, Bat Mitzvah, Holocaust… others
    Leviticus 7: Idols, Rewards and Punishments of God, tithes, first-fruits, number “7”… Judgment of God
    Exodus 2: Passover-Seder-Eucharist-Red See-The Two Columns the Great Miracle to Come-Song of Moses
    Exodus 2b: Pass of the Red See: Baptism, Resurrection
    Exodus 3: Feast of Tabernacles-Pilgrimage

    I’m humbly asking for us to break some new ground in our studies and try and identify from Revelations the parallels between the feasts and the end times prophesies. I believe that the rapture of the church is synonymous with the Feast of Trumpets. Maybe we can prove that the occurrence of the Feast and the rapture is pre-trib and silence the detractors and their foolishness.

    I look forward to your response, if you are agreed I think we should set up some ground rules etc….

    In His Grace

    Wes

    • Hi Wesley!

      In your previous post you wrote:

      “Your oppents say, when we sin, Jesus pulls out His eraser and removes our names from the book of life and when we repent, we are penciled back in according to their logic.”

      If that was true, then my page would have a hole in it from being erased so many times! Ha, ha! Thank God for the riches of his grace, mercy and patience!

      You wrote:
      “In some of my defenses of the pre-trib rapture I explained to my opponents that the trumpet in 1Thess 4 and 1Cor 15 are not the same as the trumpet judgments.”

      I agree with you on this, because the seven trumpet judgments of Revelation are just that, judgments! The trumpet in
      1 Thes.4:16 and 1 Cor.15:51 is not a judgment, but represents the resurrection and catching away of the church, which is the blessed hope. So, how can the seventh trumpet, which is the wrath of God, be related to the resurrection and catching away? This is the same error that pastor Paul made regarding to the comparison of those of the “one taken” group who are being compared to those who were taken away by the flood. Since we have identified beyond doubt that those take away by the flood were the wicked, so also must those of the “one taken” group represent the wicked. If the two are being compared in likeness of character, how can you make one wicked and then those that they are being compared to, the righteous? That’s why I jumped on that one when he presented it, because it is a no-brainer in proving that the resurrection and catching away is not in view there. If someone is truely for God and concerned about the truth of his word and you find out that you have been in error about the interpretation of God’s word at any point, then be willing to confess it, admit your error and move on! Don’t continue teaching it! There is just no way to make the comparison of the wicked taken in the flood to those of the “one taken” group and make them the raptured.

      Thank you for the refresher in Jewish feasts. I quess we can just do as we have done and continue to take it verse by verse. I will put in what I have learned and garnered and you do the same with our why’s and how comes.

      But first, since chapter 16 is the beginning of the bowls, I wanted to make an observance regarding the 5th, 6th and 7th trumpet’s in regards to their being announced as “woes.” First, there is an announcement prior to the beginning of the woes that they are coming and there is an announcement that the first woe is past and that two woes are yet to come. In contrast, there is never an announcement that the second woe has completed and there is no announcement that the third woe is beginning, not in the same way as the first two anyway and there is no announcement that the 3rd woe has completed. There is an announcement of the of the 3rd woe, but it is not the same as the previous woe announcements, for it is announced as part of the narrative:

      “Therefore rejoice, you heavens and you who dwell in them! But “Woe” to the earth and the sea because the devil has gone down to you! He is filled with fury, becasue he knows that his time is short.”

      We are meant to pickup on this wording in Scripture to understand that this caution of “woe” is identifying the 3rd woe.”

      “Then I heard a loud voice from the temple saying to the seven angels, ” ‘Go, pour out the seven bowls of God’s wrath on the earth.’ ”

      Now let me reiterate what I said in a previous post. There are those who claim that the bowl judgments alone represent the wrath of God and that the seals and trumpets are not to be considered as wrath. This, like the “one taken” theory being the rapture is easy to debunk. They make this claim because of the following verse:

      “Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls filled with the ” ‘wrath of God.’ ”

      Ah, ha! See, the bowls are the wrath of God! What they fail to realize or acknowledge is what is said regarding the bowl’s in Rev.15:1:

      “I saw in heaven another great and marvelous sign: seven angels with the seven “last” plagues–“last,” because with them God’s wrath is completed.”

      Pay attention to the details, details, details! There are two key words here “Last” and “completed.” The entire group of seven bowls comprise the last of God’s wrath and the completion of it. If you have the bowls being stated as the “last” plagues and that they “complete” God’s wrath, there had to be wrath prior to the bowls in order for them to be last and to be the completion, that is, they complete the wrath that had happened before them. What was before them? The seals and the trumpets. And just for the record, the seals and trumpets are both referred to as the “wrath of God” found in the following verses:

      6th Seal: “They called to the mountains and the rocks, ” ‘Fall on us and hid us from the face of him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! For the great day of their wrath has come and who can stand?’ ” (Rev.6:16-17)

      7th Trumpet: And the twenty-four elders, who were seated on their thrones before God, fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying: ” ‘We give thanks to you, Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was, because you have taken your great power and have begun to reign. The nations were angry; and your wrath has come.’ ” (Rev.11:17-18)

      So Wesley, how can they make the claim that only the bowls are to be considered the wrath of God?

      First Bowl:
      “The first angel went and poured out his bowl on the land, and ugly and painful sores broke out on the people who had the mark of the beast and worshiped his image.”

      First of all, as the verse above states, this plague is restricted to those who have the mark of the beast and so, those who are left of the great tribulation saints will not be affected by this plague, being that they will not have received his mark. Now, I feel there are two possibilties here:

      1.) That these painful ugly sores become the result of the bodies rejection of the forein device and it’s material implanted under the sin, which is what is producing the painful sores or…..

      2.) It has nothing to do with the bodies rejection of the devices and the sores are caused supernaturally by the power of God.

      2nd and 3rd bowls:
      The second angel poured out his bowl on the sea, and it turned into blood like that of a deadman, and every living thing in the sea died. The third angel poured out his bowl on the rivers and springs of water, and they became blood. Then I heard the angel in charge of the waters say:

      “You are just in these judgments, you who are and who were, the Holy One, because you have so judged; for they have shed the blood of your saints and prophets, and you have given them blood to drink as they deserve” and I heard the altar respond: “Yes, Lord God Almighty, true and just are your judgments.”

      Note: The phrase “you who are and who were” speaks of God’s eternal state.

      First of all, unlike the 2nd trumpet where John stated that a third of the sea turned to blood, I believe that it may have appeared to him to be blood, but could be because of the discoloration of sea because of all the sediment from the bottom of the ocean rising to the top because of that asteroid/meteorite that is going to hit and also because the purpose of that particular plague is not to turn the water into blood. On the other hand, I do believe that here in the 2nd and 3rd bowl judgments that God is turning the oceans and the drinking water into literal blood.

      1.) He says that the water was changed into blood like that of a dead man, which would mean that it was coagulated, that is, clotting.

      2.) This reason is the most plausible and that is, because the angel of the waters says that God has judged justly because they shed the blood of his saints and his prophets and God has given them blood to drink as payback. Therefore, I believe that the oceans, lakes and all fresh water will be turned into literal blood. The fact that the ocean is turned to blood would keep anyone from being able to use desalination machines to get fresh water from the ocean and the fresh water would of course already be undrinkable as well. If you notice, many of the things that are being deminished and taken away on earth are the things that people take for granted, who do not give thanks nor acknowlegde God who provides them. This takes me back to what the first angel said in Rev.14:7:

      He said in a loud voice, “Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water.”

      This particular plague would tell me that the Lord’s return to the earth will be soon after this, as he has just taken out the worlds water supply and the human body can only go 5 days at the most without water. One thing I have always wondered about also is that, when God turns the oceans and the fresh water into blood, I wonder if he also turns all of the stored bottle water into blood as well? I do know this, as we will read later in the 6th bowl, it is said that the water of the great Euphrates will be dried up to make way for the kings of the east and so obviously the Eurphates will not be included when the fresh water is turned into blood, possibly for the sake of allowing those kings to come across into the valley of Megiddo, otherwise it would be a big mess for them to try and cross. Oh no sire! The river has been turned into blood, lets go back home and try another day!

      Well Wesley, I look foreward to your thoughts on this post regarding the first three bowls and to whatever else you might add from your own studies. So, until the next post ……

      Thank God for his grace and his mercy which comes through his Son, Jesus Christ.

  59. Greetings Don,

    Praise and thank God for Him being the author of salvation and not having a big eraser! When you look at the venom spewed by men like Pastor Paul it makes you grateful that your salvation is not dependent on these loons. I will continue to rebuke his false teachings as long as the Holy Spirit leads me to do so.

    Chapter 16 – the last of God’s judgments/wrath upon a sinful world. I’ll present a scriptural map on the relevant verses and you can review and give your much appreciated comments:

    (a) THE GREAT TRIBULATION – Matt 24: 15-28
    ~1 the abomination of desolation – Matt 24:15, Rev 13
    ~2 warnings to the Jews to flee – Matt 24:16-20
    ~3 the core of the great tribulation – Matt 24: 21-27, Rev 16
    ~4 the gathering of the nations at Armageddon – Matt 24:28, Rev
    19:17-18

    (b) AFTER THE GREAT TRIBULATION – Matt 24:29-31, Rev 19:11-
    21.
    ~1 signs in heaven – Matt 24:29
    ~2 coming of Christ in power – Matt 24:30
    ~3 gathering of Israel (elect) – Matt 24:31

    (c) THE LAST THREE EXHORTATIONS – Matt 24:32-44
    ~1 the fig tree – Matt 24:32-35 {know that it is near/ 33}
    ~2 the days of Noah – Matt 24:36-42 {watch therefore/ 42}
    ~3 the householder – Matt 24:43-44 {be ready/ 44}

    So we have reached the point where the man of sin has set up the abomination of desolation, the Jews are warned to flee and the core of great tribulation begins.

    1st BOWL:
    (Rev 16:1) And I heard a great voice out of the temple, saying to the seven angels, Go ye, and pour out the seven bowls of the wrath of God into the earth. (Rev 16:2) And the first went, and poured out his bowl into the earth; and it became a noisome and grievous sore upon the men that had the mark of the beast, and that worshipped his image.

    You said:
    1.) That these painful ugly sores become the result of the bodies rejection of the forein device and it’s material implanted under the sin, which is what is producing the painful sores or…..

    2.) It has nothing to do with the bodies rejection of the devices and the sores are caused supernaturally by the power of God.

    Prior to this, the martyrs in heaven were crying out to God, how long? (Rev 6:9) And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: (Rev 6:10) and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?(Rev 6:11) And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled their course.

    I believe that God’s wrath poured out in the bowl judgments are in part the long awaited vengeance of the martyred saints. It’s a offensively smelling nauseating sore. I agree with your 2nd possibility, that it is supernatural. At this point with all that took place in the first half of trib, the mid trib events and a resurrected Beast, I don’t think that it is far-fetched for supernatural events to be the order of the day.

    2nd BOWL:
    (Rev 16:3) And the second poured out his bowl into the sea; and it became blood as of a dead man; and every living soul died, even the things that were in the sea.

    In your comments you united this bowl with the third bowl, but I will keep them separated because I feel that this bowl in the sea represents coagulated blood of dead men as you said, also the very thickness of the blood would prevent any manner of sea/ocean travel, ships would not be able to displace thick blood so they would sink. It is in keeping with the bigger plan to have the forces of Satan/Beast 1/Beast 2 and their minions to journey by land to the river Euphrates – we’ll look at this and other rivers soon.

    The complete death of every living sea dwelling entity in addition to men is another key factor in that it worsens an already terrible food/famine situation. Remember that men were receiving the mark of the beast in order that they may buy or sell, now that mark has readily become virtually useless with diminishing food supplies. I think that this would create a gullible type of man who would be easily convinced to wage war on Israel as the cause of the famine engulfing the lands. Just as Hitler blamed the Jews for Germany’s economic woes before WWII.

    3rd BOWL: AND A COMMENDATION
    (Rev 16:4) And the third poured out his bowl into the rivers and the fountains of the waters; and it became blood.(Rev 16:5) And I heard the angel of the waters saying, Righteous art thou, who art and who wast, thou Holy One, because thou didst thus judge:
    (Rev 16:6) for they poured out the blood of the saints and the prophets, and blood hast thou given them to drink: they are worthy.(Rev 16:7) And I heard the altar saying, Yea, O Lord God, the Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.

    You made reference to the star-“Wormwood” which turned the water bitter and undrinkable. In this case however I also believe that it is literal blood as it is after this bowl is poured out, the commendation comes for the righteousness of God’s judgments in avenging the blood of the saints. I believe there’s a valuable lesson to learn here, God will answer our prayers in His time and according to His will and purpose. The saints were asked to wait and God did deliver judgment on their behalf. Often when things we pray about don’t happen in our timing and fashion, we are quick to say that maybe God has forgotten us. We should learn to be patient and watchful cause God does not go back on His promises.

    You made a critical observation regarding the water supplies and human existence for five days without water. I do believe that the time is indeed drawing near, if we combine a no water and famine situation we have a recipe for war, don’t we, at least the beast and the minions would?

    Regarding the distinct description of the 2nd and 3rd woes, yes indeed it is meant to signal a change in the heavens which would physically impact the earth. Satan prior to his casting out of heaven roamed freely in God’s throne room as well as on earth, he has patiently infiltrated the church and everyday life of the average man – things of God are good and can be singular in nature whereas the counterfeit things of Satan can take many shapes. He now knows (his own little revelations) that his time are numbered, gone are the free to roam and accuse days, this is a desperate evil entity grasping at last straws without any consideration for life or man whatsoever. When you look at the details so far, men are being slain for not taking the mark of the beast, there’s no court case and plea bargaining it’s instant judgment. He went after the feeing Jews and failed, then he trains his attention on the remnants and saints. This is a woe worthy of special mention as you suggested.

    Well my friend, another lengthy post, my rebuke of pastor Paul continues and I am like a pitbull when it comes to God’s word, no wussy pastor is going to intimidate me. The more lies he spews, the more i’ll rebuke him. Paul does not understand that being wrong 25 years ago would be right 25 years later…I’ve forgiven him also as this is part of the command to rebuke and forgive.

    Looking forward to your next comments.Be blessed and throw out all the erasers in your house (ha ha).

    In His Grace

    Wesley

    • I’m reading your post right, so just a quick note. Regarding bowls 2 & 3 I wrote the following:

      “On the other hand, I do believe that here in the 2nd and 3rd bowl judgments that God is turning the oceans and the drinking water into literal blood. ”

      So, I too believe that the oceans and the fresh waters are turned into literal blood. The comparison I was making was in regards to the second trumpet, where Johns says that a third of creatures in the sea died, a third of the ships were destroyed and a third of the sea was turned to blood. It was his mention of sea being turned into blood that I was comparing to, stating that, I believe that in that 2nd trumpet that the blood that John mentions may be discoloration from the sediment that will be disturbed on the bottom of the ocean, because of this asteroid/meteorite hitting the bottom. Here in this bowl judgment though, I believe that the oceans and the fresh water are literally changed into blood.

    • Hello Wesley and God’s blessing’s!

      I’m here at work as usual, but after I get done with this shift, it will be the start of my 3 days off. Hope all is well with you and your family. I just read over Rev.15 & 16 again, both having to do with the seven bowls, which completes God’s wrath and signals the return of the Lord. Considering what Rev.15:1 has to say about the bowls, I can’t understand how anyone one could make the claim that only the seven bowl judgments are to be considered as the wrath of God, with the seals and the trumpets being omitted. As I said before, since it is stated that the seven bowls comprise the last plagues, then the first plagues would have to precede them. If there are last plagues, then there has to be plagues of wrath first or prior to the last ones. In the same manner, if the seven bowls combined complete God’s wrath, then wrath had to begin prior to them, else the seven bowls would be the first. If you have wrath being completed by the bowls, then you have to have somthing of wrath to start the wrath off. A simple example would be: “And finally, Johnny was the last runner to cross the finish line, which completed the race.” Well, if Johnny is the last one to cross the finish line, then that would infer that there were others who crossed the finish line ahead of him and that he brought the race to its completion.

      “The fourth angel poured out his bowl on the sun, and the sun was given power to scorch people with fire. They were seared by the intense heat and they cursed the name of God, who had control over these plagues, but they refused to repent and glorify him.”

      As we saw in the 4th trumpet, God deminished the light of the day and night by darkening a third of the surface of the sun, moon and stars, that is, when that 4th trumpet is blown, the earth will begin to only receive two thirds of the light that it usually receives, both for day and night. Now, here in the 4th bowl judgment, God is going to cause activity in the sun and it is going to be scorching people with fire and searing them with intense heat. I have been out in Death Valley on my motorcycle many times when it has been 125 degrees, but it did not scorch me. It was hot, yes, but people could bear it and still function in it. Image then, how hot the heat of the sun is going to be during this bowl judgment in order to be able to scorch people. We are probably talking about temperatures in excess of 140 degrees and higher to be able to accomplish that scorching! noticed that after the execution of the 4th, 5th and 7th bowls, the response, albeit the undesired one, is the same for each, they curse God and will not repent. Now those are some hardened hearts! Not only is God going to scorch them with intense heat from the sun, but remember also that prior to this, in bowls 2 & 3, God will have turned the oceans and the fresh water into literal blood, so there will be no water to give them relief from their thirst nor from their being scorched by the intense heat. No way to cool off!

      “The fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom was plunged into darkness. Men gnawed their tongues in agony and cursed the God of heaven becasue of their pains and their sores, but they refuesed to repent of what they had done.”

      Here, when it is stated that the beasts kingdom was plunged into darkness, some claim that this is speaking of literal darkness, that is, the absense of light, the same as with the plauge in Egypt where it was said that the darkness could be felt and though that could be true, I tend to lean towards the metaphorical meaning of darkness and that is, that the beasts throne will be thrown into confussion, disorder, chaos, disarray. There is just not enough said about what kind of darkness it is or anything in the text that would infer metaphorical darkness. During this bowl, they will be gnawing their tonges because of the previous bowl that brought the ulgy, painful sores as a result of the mark of the beast and as said earlier, the still curse God and will not repent.

      I will leave off on the 5th bowl then Wesley and so we have the 6th and 7th bowls left. As always, I look forward to your response and input. So, until the next post………

      Yours in Christ

  60. Hello My Brother,

    Quite a lot going around the world, Chile 8.8 earthquake, freak storm in Europe, mudslides in Portugal and Uganda, earthquake in Taiwan. I think that the birth pangs are increasing in frequency and intensity. Pray for our salvation from God’s wrath.

    (Rev 16:8) And the fourth poured out his bowl upon the sun; and it was given unto it to scorch men with fire.(16:9) And men were scorched with great heat: and they blasphemed the name of God who hath the power over these plagues; and they repented not to give him glory.

    Well I think that this bowl judgment perfectly fits in the sequence of events, the sea is what determines our weather pattern, now that it has turned to blood the logical weather condition would be searing heat. We learn that despite all these supernatural plagues, men refuse to repent. C’mon you wake up and all the oceans and rivers are blood, you gotta ask yourself, is someone up there after me? But their response is that of the natural man, deny the obvious just like Pharaoh did.

    Let us conflate the following verses by Isaiah when the nation of Israel was take away in bondage to the reaction of men when the 4th bowl is poured out: ‘(Isa 64:6) For we are all become as one that is unclean, and all our righteousnesses are as a polluted garment: and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, take us away. (64:7) And there is none that calleth upon thy name, that stirreth up himself to take hold of thee; for thou hast hid thy face from us, and hast consumed us by means of our iniquities.’ This is exactly what the reaction of the natural man going to be when the bowl judgments are poured out, it is further prophesied in (Psa 53:1)….The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good. (53:2) God looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, that did seek God.(53:3) Every one of them is gone back: they are altogether become filthy; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.(53:4) Have the workers of iniquity no knowledge? who eat up my people as they eat bread: they have not called upon God.(53:5) There were they in great fear, where no fear was: for God hath scattered the bones of him that encampeth against thee: thou hast put them to shame, because God hath despised them.’ We have confirmation that God indeed has closed Himself from men, they have no one or anything that would lead them to salvation. Jesus outlined where faith is prompted when He said, (Joh 6:44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day. (6:45) It is written in the prophets, And they shall be all taught of God. Every man therefore that hath heard, and hath learned of the Father, cometh unto me.

    (Rev 16:10) And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain,(16:11) And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.

    If it were possible for men to seek God on their own they would drop to their knees and repent but it is only through God that we are drawn to faith in Jesus. For all those who believe that God is not sovereign over His creation here’s a lesson to be learnt. Men have been described as the heirs to the kingdom and yet God has entered His throne room and turned away until the 7 bowls are poured out. There are a lot of Christians out there that won’t even consider that every single thing on earth and in heaven is under God’s control. Our fellow blogger Henry cannot even attribute the first four seal judgments as belonging to the wrath of God. He cannot come to terms with the Antichrist coming to power and slaying millions of saints as something that God would permit, so he, like many others prefer to say that this is the wrath of an independent Satan. They cannot understand that all the evil beings that exist are created beings, these beings think that they are doing what they want but the fact is that they are playing right into God’s master plan. When men take or attempt to take away from God’s sovereignty then they become no less than those demons that believe that they are in control of their own destinies. I am happy and humble to be God’s servant in obedience to His Son, our Blessed Savior.

    Whew! jumped off the track there….I’m looking at these bowl judgments and the description given by John is rather curt. I think the true intent behind these short descriptions are for us to look at what is the real purpose behind these judgments. I think that it is the battle of Armageddon and Christ return that the world has waited for over 2,000 years.

    (Rev 16:12) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.(16:13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.(16:14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

    These verses seem very out of place in the sequence of events, but when looking closer we see that a battle is being prepared for. The once impassable river Euphrates has now become a pathway, we have to see the preparations as battle tactics as Christ has placed all that are required in place to mobilize all the dark forces in one place for His second coming. Christ the military whiz!!!

    Regarding the beast kingdom being thrown into darkness,I believe that this represents a wake up call to the beast and his minions that their time and freedom that they thought they had is no more. They are now as you said in a state of confusion and they are led into a process of going to war with Israel to prevent Jesus’ return that would put the kibosh on their plans. I also believe that these last set of judgments would come closer to the end of the 3 1/2 year period. I think that for the most part the world would be in some semblance of calm; for those who take the mark of the beast their lives would be just like the days of Noah before the flood. For saints, they would be hunted and persecuted as a sport most likely.

    I’m gonna stop here and await your insight on these comments and thoughts on the 7th bowl.

    In His Grace,

    Wes

    • Hey Wesley,

      Yes, I agree with you Wesley in that, the time is getting closer with all of these earthquakes and things taking place in the world. And you are correct in advising to pray for our salvation from the wrath of God, for regarding this Jesus said:

      “Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.”

      I think that I mentioned this in a previous post, but since we are the subject, I’d like to bring attention to the word “Escape.” Prior to this verse, is Luke’s version
      of Matthew 24, which is regarding the tribulation period leading up to the end of the age. With yet another proof of a Pre-trib resurrection and catching away, Jesus says, “Pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen.” Well, we know from what is going to be taking place on the earth, that no one would not be able to escape the seven seals, trumpets and bowls by remaining on the earth, because the entire earth will be affected by them. Therefore, Jesus mention of escaping is in reference to the his coming to take his church off of the earth at the resurrection and catching away. Oh, I know what the post and mid-tribers would say, “he’s talking about escaping while still on the earth” or something of that nature. After it was brought to their attention, they would brainstorm in order to figure out a way to make if fit their interpretation, because that is what they always do, protect their view. The fact is, whoever is on the earth during this time will not escape anything, not even those who make it through alive to the end, because they will have had to have gone through the same plagues in order to make it through to the end. And as proof that Jesus is speaking about escaping by the resurrection and catching away, he says the following:

      “Be careful, or your hearts will be weighted down with dissipation, drunkenness and the anxieties of life, and that day will close on you unexpectedly like trap. For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth.”

      So again, there will be no escape for those who live anywhere on the earth, for as he says “It will come upon all those who live on the face of the (whole earth). Therefore, the only escape is to be taken off of the earth. This subject of escape is also seen in another promise that he gave:

      “Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.”

      Notice that the promise is made in the letter to the church of Philadelpia, who are 2000 years dead now and I don’t believe that Jesus promise to keep them from the hour of trial meant that they would be dead before this event took place. Obviously, the promise was made to the generation that would be enduring patiently prior to the that hour of trial, which is another designation for the wrath of God and also the day of the Lord. In short, here in Luke 21:36 Jesus reveals the possibility of escape prior to the wrath of God. On to the 6th Bowl.

      “The sixth angel poured out his bowl on the great river Eurphrates, and it water was dried up to prepare the way for the kings from the East.”

      As I said in the previous post, the water of the Euphrates is dried up as a result of this sixth bowl being poured out, but remember also that at the pouring out of the third bowl it was stated that, all the rivers and springs of water will have been turned into blood. Obviously, this did not include the Euphrates, for if it had, then the kings of the East would not be able to cross over into the valley of Megiddo to be gathered together with the rest of the kings and their armies for the Lords return for their destruction.

      “Then I saw three evil spirits that looked like frogs; they came out of the mouth of the dragon, out of the mouth of the beast and out of the mouth of the false prophet. They are the spirits of demons performing miraculous signs, and they go out to the kings of the whole world, to gather them for the battle on the great day of God Almighty.”

      First of all, this verse is the first place that identifies the 2nd beast of chapter 13 as the “false prophet”, the other place is Rev.19:19 where he is said to be cast into the lake of fire alive.
      Second, we can see here that there are three evil spirits that are behind the events that the dragon, the beast and the false prophet are performing. I wonder who these evil spirits could be? In any case, these evil spirits are the ones that are behind the miraculous signs being performed by the beast and the false prophet, namely, the fatal head wound and those miraculous signs that the beast and the false prophet perform for the purpose of deceiving the inhabitants of the earth. These evil spirits are also responsible for gathering together all of the kings of the earth and their armies for the great day of God Almighty, the battle of Armegeddon, as well as their deaths by the double-edged sword that procedes from the mouth of Jesus as seen in Rev.19:14-21. Needless to say, there is not much of a battle, seeing that Jesus just speaks and they all fall dead!

      “Behold, I come like a thief! Blessed is he who stays awake and keeps his clothes with him, so that he may not go naked and be shamefully exposed.”

      Right after the 6th bowl, Jesus enters his warning for those who would be reading the book of this prophecy. He uses the phrase “Behold, I come like a thief,” which is the same phrase that he used when describing the end of the age in Mt.24:42-44 regarding the example of the good man of the house, who if he knew at what time the thief was going to break in, he would have stayed up and watched for the thief so that he couldn’t break into his house. This warning is entered here, because the 6th bowl has just been completed and only the 7th bowl remains to be poured out, which will completes the wrath of God and ushers in the end of the age with the return of the Lord to the earth to set up his kingdom.

      “Then they gathered the kings together to the place that in Hebrew is called Armageddon.”

      The “they” that are gathering the kings to Armageddon are as mentioned above, those three evil spirits that look like frogs, which comw out of the mouths of the dragon, beast and false prophet. Amegeddon is also the place where those of the “One taken” group are taken by those harvesters (angels) at the end of the age who first collect the weeds and tie them into bundles to be thrown into the fiery furnace. Here are some of the events taking place at the return of Christ:

      1. Angels collect the weeds (one taken). These are those who cause sin and do evil.
      2. The angel standing in the sun gathers together all the birds of the air for the supper of the great God.
      3. The Beast and the false prophet are cast alive into the lake of fire.
      4. The double-edged sword procedes from the mouth of Christ and kills all those that were gathered together at Armegeddon, including the (ones taken) and the birds eat their flesh.
      5. Satan is thrown into the Abyss and kept there during that thousand years of Christ’s reign so he can’t deceive the nations.
      6. The angels then collect the righteous who were left of the (one taken, one left) group and bring them to Christ.
      7. The seperation of the goats and the sheep takes place.
      8. The millennial period begins.

      “The seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and out of the temple came a loud voice from the throne, saying, ” ‘It is done!’ ” Then there came flashes of lightning, rumblings, peals of thunder and a severe earthquake. No earthquake like it has ever occurred since man has been on earth, so tremendous was the quake. The great city split into three parts, and the cities of the nations collapsed. God remembered Babylon the Great and gave her the cup filled with the wine of the fury of his wrath. Every island fled away and the mountains could not be found.”

      First of all, the phrase “It is done” signals the end of God’s wrath being that this is the 7th bowl. Chapters 17 & 18 are the detailed description of the prostitute who rides the beast “Babylon the Great” and the details of her destruction, which is followed by chapter 19, the return of the Lord to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom. One of the results of the 7th bowl is the greatest earthquake to ever shake the earth since man was here. So great in fact that, the great city “Babylon,” splits into three parts and the cities of the nations collapse! This seems to infer that this earthquake will be world-wide to be able to cause the cities of the nations to collapse. I think of cities like New York, with all its skyscrapers falling into each other and all the glass and steel smashing together like some Hollywood disaster movie. Not only is the this quake going to be so powerful to bring down the cities of the nations, but it also causes the islands and the mountains to not be found. After all, islands are just the tops of underwater mountains sticking up out of the water and so they will just sink below the surface. I have an idea of what may be happening here. Being that I have worked in IT, I have always worked with media storage and one of the things that they protect media from is what is called the “Liquification Factor.”
      This is when the earthquake is so great that the underground water table mixes with the earth turning it into basically quicksand, That is, the ground mixes with the water and becomes liquified. This could be why the islands and the mountains disappear. Since this will be the largest quake ever to hit the earth, if this liquification factor takes place, then the base of the mountains that support the islands would sink into the ocean causing the islands to disappear, as well as the mountains above the ocean. They would just sink into the earth.

      “From the sky huge hailstones of about a hundred pounds each fell upon men.”

      As if the greatest earthquake of all time wasn’t devasting enough, there will also be hailstones that weigh around a hundred pounds falling on those who are left on the earth. Forget the umbrella’s! For a hailstone to weigh a 100 pounds, it would have to be about 2 to 3 feet in diameter. Now, imagine that falling from the sky! These things would go right through the roofs of houses and most buildings, as well as crush vehicles. After all of these seals, trumpets and bowls are poured out, one can see why Jesus said: “unless those days were shortened, no one would survive, but for the sake of the elect those days will be shortened. In otherwords, unless those days were shortened, there would be no one left alive to go into the millennial period in their mortal bodies to repopulate the earth.

      “And they cursed God on account of the plague of hail, because the plague was so terrible.”

      That’s no surprise! Over and over again, through the seals, trumpets and bowls, God has been pouring his wrath out through these plagues and by them, using more drastic means to get their attention to show that he is God and to get them to repent, but they will not. Not even here at the last bowl, which takes place just prior to Christ’s return.

      Well, this finishes up the last of God’s plagues with the detailed description of the destruction of the woman who rides the beast, followed by the return of Christ in chapter 19. So, I will leave off here and wait as usual for your response. See you in chapters 17 & 18.

      Yours in Christ

  61. Hello Don,

    Just an update on world disasters, this morning a 6.0 earthquake hit a village in turkey, death toll so far is 57 and they are still searching for missing villagers. Birth pangs are increasing, keep praying that we escape all that is about to happen. While you focused on the word escape, I want to pay attention to the word – ‘all’. Here’s another point of contention for the mid and post tribbers.

    I was reading our Pastor Paul’s comments recently and the there’s no end to the madness, he has placed the 4th/6th seal judgments in the second half of tribulation. It makes me wonder if men like Paul and others who deliberately do these injustices to the word, are they convinced in their hearts or minds that they are doing the right thing? For crying out loud! There is no mystery to the timing of the seal and trumpet judgments, why purposefully write the wrong thing?

    (Rev 16:12) And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared. (16:13) And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet. (16:14) For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty. (16:15) Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame. (16:16) And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.(16:17) And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done. (16:18) And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great. (16:19) And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath. (16:20) And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. (16:21) And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.

    Way back in chapter 9 we read about the 6th trumpet judgment and it involved in some part the river Euphrates, (Rev 9:13) And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God, (9:14) Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates. (9:15) And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men. (9:16) And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.

    At that time four angels were loosed and an army from the demonic realm were also loosed to take the lives of a third of mankind. We see now that yet another army is amassing at the river Euphrates this time it is an army of nations who were swayed by three evil spirits (frogs) through counterfeit miracles that would cause the world leaders to gather together for what in their minds would be a battle of the ages while it would literally be a great feast for the birds in God’s plan for that day. (Psa 2:1) Why do the heathen rage, and the people imagine a vain thing?(2:2)The kings of the earth set themselves, and the rulers take counsel together, against the LORD, and against his anointed, saying,(2:3) Let us break their bands asunder, and cast away their cords from us.(2:4) He that sitteth in the heavens shall laugh: the Lord shall have them in derision. (2:5) Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath, and vex them in his sore displeasure.

    With the outcome of this battle being foretold in the bible, it must be quite incredible, these false miracles that are being wrought by the unholy trinity. I wonder though, since the peoples of the nations fall for false signs and miracles,how come they do when they don’t believe in God in the first place so why believe in miracles at all? We saw from previous bowl judgments that men despite there painful sores etc refuse to repent, this is without a doubt related to God in His throne room and grace removed completely from the world, all hope is gone, they probably don’t even understand what hope or redemption is at this point. Recently I asked an Atheist to compare the value of his soul to a dung beetle and tell me which is more important, he said they are both just as important in that they were both created for a purpose. Do you see how incredibly crazy these people are and how much worse it is going to get? How is it possible for the world to be filled with Christians during the tribulation of 7 years and these false miracles are going unchecked? These mid and post tribbers need to really look at the judgments and their outcomes in a very serious and literal way and then revisit their doctrines.That is if they can get past their own ignorance and pride.

    The earthquakes that are rocking different parts of the world are headlining almost every news headline today as fast as they occur. It’s almost morbid, the lust that the media has for these disasters, yet we see things are getting worse every single day, it’s no longer safe to measure time left in weeks, months, years, the best measurable is literally days before the final 7 years. What is of keen interest is the faith of Babylon – some say it is the Catholic Establishment, others say it is a place in Iraq, some say it is the Roman system of government. All very interesting but the truth will be revealed in the next couple of chapters. Looking forward to your opening comments on chapter 17 and comments on this post as well.

    In His Grace,

    Wes

  62. Hello Again,

    Before we proceed to chapter 17, I would like us to look at chapter 13 first as I have a couple of questions as well as observations, I don’t know how they may impact the rest of our studies of the book of revelations though.

    (Rev 13:1) And he stood upon the sand of the sea. And I saw a beast coming up out of the sea, having ten horns, and seven heads, and on his horns ten diadems, and upon his heads names of blasphemy.

    (Rev 12:1) And a great sign was seen in heaven: a woman arrayed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars;

    In (Rev 13:1) John says,”And I saw”. While in (Rev 12:1) he says,”And a great sign was seen.” In one instance he sees literally and in another he specifies a sign! Let’s look a little further….

    (Rev 13:2) And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his throne, and great authority.

    (Rev 12:3) And there was seen another sign in heaven: and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his heads seven diadems.

    Once again in (Rev 13:2) John states,”And the beast which I saw” then he states in (Rev 12:3), “And there was seen another sign.”
    Is it possible that Rev 13:1,2 are literal?

    The beast is obviously the Antichrist, but is John giving us a clue to his identity? Remember he did not say what he saw was a sign! If we look at “(Dan 9:27) And he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease; and upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.” For years this was regarded as a peace treaty between Israel and her enemies that is brokered by the man who would later be revealed as the Antichrist when he breaks the covenant with Israel and sets up the abomination of desolation.

    What if the daily sacrifice is reinstated by Israel on its own, the site for the third temple is located in Jerusalem and it is very plausible that the Jews can oust the Muslims from it soon. In recent times Israel has been reclaiming lands from Palestinians for the Jews and there are plans to send home all immigrants and their families as early as July 2010. I would wager that Israel is on the way of becoming a total Jewish state. Could it then be possible, if we follow the natural outcome of these actions, that the covenant with the many would in fact be a war declaration that Israel’s enemies agree to and in the middle of the week the war plans are set in motion?

    The seal judgments 1-4 depicts the Antichrist coming to power, a world war would break out and the natural outcomes with the type of weaponry that are available now there would be famines and chemical warfare can lead to all kinds of new and even old diseases. This world war would come about when America’s enemies defeat the USA, the Antichrist also known as the king of the north would have his powers rooted in a revived Roman Empire (4th kingdom) and would lead the EU armies against those that defeated America who we both know are the Muslim countries located in great concentration in the middle east. When the Antichrist defeats America’s enemies he would in fact be defeating Israel’s enemies as well. I think that is possibly why they (Israel) would welcome him in their land to set up his headquarters.

    War, famine and pestilence are part of the same, they are interrelated and would seem to be natural outcomes for the most part, it is when the 6th seal is opened that we have supernatural things happening in the form of natural disasters happening on a global scale. Saints would be martyred during the world war, famine and pestilence, two witnesses would be sensitizing the world not to be deceived by the Antichrist led war against America’s and Israel’s enemies. Of course the world at large have always held America as a beacon of hope and world peace, therefore anyone coming to America’s rescue would be regarded as a hero rather than an enemy so it would be hard for the two witnesses to convince the world. I think they would be viewed as traitors against the free-world (EU) and Israel so when they are killed by the beast it is natural that their deaths are celebrated as they would be blamed for a number of the things that happen as a result of the world war.

    I know these things sound unconventional, but scripture never said that the covenant with the many would be a peace accord, neither does scripture say that the Antichrist would come as a man of peace, that is man’s interpretation of scriptures. In some circles it has been said that the Antichrist is in place of Christ, but I am not sure if that is correct, I think that it is literal and he is in fact anti-messiah who seemingly because of his conquering of the Muslim nations that invade America to be a hero when in fact he is a war monger.

    Let me your thoughts, i’ll appreciate them.

    Wes

    • Hello Wesley,

      I feel refreshed today, as I have not received a post from pastor Paul. I tell you brother, I don’t know where he gets his interpretations from! He claims that the resurrection and catching away is taking place in Mt.24:31, where the Son of Man sends out his angels to gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other. In the resurrection and catching away, angels do not resurrect and catch up the church in the air, the Lord does. As the Scripture states: “The Lord himself shall descend from heaven.” Not only that, but those people in Mt.24:31 are all alive when they are taken. These are those that were left of the “one taken, one left” group, which are synonymous with the “Wheat” of the “Wheat and Tares” group. In the parable, the harvestors (angels) “First” collect the tares and tie them into bundles to be burned, then they collect the wheat, which are brought into his barn. After the angels take those of the “one taken” group, they then return and collect the wheat. Anyway, on to your observartions/questions:

      “Write on a scroll what you “see” and send it to the seven churches;”

      Remember that, John is being shown visions by the angel whom the Lord sent. So, when John saw a woman clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars on her head, that is exactly what the vision looked like. The same thing for when he sees a beast coming out of the sea having ten horns and seven heads, with ten crowns, etc. God is describing these things to us in symbols, seven heads, ten horns, seven crowns, sun, moon, twelve stars, etc. All of these symbols of course have literal meanings behind them, which are revealed either in the book of Revelation itself or in other OT or NT books. For example, when John sees this vision of the woman clothed with sun, with moon under her feet and a crown of twelve stars, those of us who have studied God’s word would immediately be reminded of Josephs dream, where Jacob reveals the symbolism behind the sun, moon and stars. On the otherhand, the beast with the seven heads and ten horns symbolism is revealed to us in the book of revelation itself. John wrote down exactly what he was seeing, that is, he actually saw a seven headed dragon, with ten horns and same for the woman with the sun, moon and stars. Another reason that we know that the beast was a vision and not real, is because the angel reveals the what the seven heads and ten horns represent. Some things may not have made any sense to those of John’s time or even later, but they make sense to us in the future. Some have said that the book of Revelation was for every age, but I disagree. I believe that for the most part, Revelation is for us in the future, when all these things would take place. Here is an example:

      “Then Isaiah said, ” ‘Hear now, you house of David! Is it not enough to try the patience of men? Will you try the patience of my God also? Therefore, the Lord himself will give you a sign: The virgin will be with child and will give birth to a son, and will call him Immanuel.”

      The verse above is obviously referring to the Lord who would come into the world in the flesh, but this happened almost 800 years later after Isaiah announced it and so those people that it was announced to had no idea what this prophecy meant, but only that it was a prophecy to them. However, for those who witnessed his birth and his life, it made sense to them as prophecy fulfilled.

      You wrote:
      “What if the daily sacrifice is reinstated by Israel on its own, the site for the third temple is located in Jerusalem and it is very plausible that the Jews can oust the Muslims from it soon. In recent times Israel has been reclaiming lands from Palestinians for the Jews and there are plans to send home all immigrants and their families as early as July 2010. I would wager that Israel is on the way of becoming a total Jewish state. Could it then be possible, if we follow the natural outcome of these actions, that the covenant with the many would in fact be a war declaration that Israel’s enemies agree to and in the middle of the week the war plans are set in motion?”

      Here is my senario: In the six day war, Moshe Dayan and Israel’s army recaptured the temple mount, but allowed the muslims to retain control of the Dome of the Rock. In doing so, the Muslims will not allow Israel to build their temple on the temple mount adjacent to the dome of the rock. Here’s what is interesting. Israel is still waiting for her Messiah, because they did not recognize Jesus when he visited them. The Muslims are also waiting for the twelfth Imam and the Messiah is supposed to aide the Imam. So, what do you think is going to happen when this beast comes and performs his fatal head wound and counterfeit resurrection, while at the same time having the false prophet doing miracles, signs and wonders to give credibility to the beast. Israel will receive him as their messiah and the Muslims will receive him as their Imam and he will make a peace covenant between them allowing the temple to be rebuilt on the temple site in proximity to the Dome of the Rock. Everybodies happy! The Muslims have their Imam the Dome of the Rock and Israel is able to rebuild the temple and begin sacrificing on the actual site of the Holy of Holies in accordence with the law. The reason that we determine that he is making a covenant of peace, is because it states that he (the ruler) will make a covenant with many, then it says that in the middle of the seven, he causes the daily sacrifice to cease and sets up that image in the holy place. Remember, it says that “he” makes a covenant with many, so the ruler (antichrist) is the one initiating the agreement and by him causing the daily sacrifice to cease would infer that he was the one who arranged it. In other words, now I have made a covenant so that you can build your temple and begin your sacrifices again and in the middle he breaks that covenant with them causing the sacrifices to cease, which he made possible for them to do in the first place. At that same time he sets up that image of himself in the holy place and this is what causes the desolation of Jerusalem, that is, now they know that he is not their Messiah and they flee into the wilderness where they will be taken care of for 3 1/2 years out of the reach of the dragon.

      Your wrote:
      “In some circles it has been said that the Antichrist is in place of Christ, but I am not sure if that is correct, I think that it is literal and he is in fact anti-messiah who seemingly because of his conquering of the Muslim nations that invade America to be a hero when in fact he is a war monger.”

      John was the only one to use the term “Antichrist” and here is his definition of that term:

      “Who is the liar? It is the man who denies that Jesus is the Christ. Such a man is the antichrist–he denies the Father and the Son.” (I John 2:22)

      So, the antichrist is not going to deny the office of the Christ, that is Messiah, but he is anti-Jesus as the Christ and will proclaim himself to be God. I hope this helps. Now, on to Chapter 17…………….

      “One of the seven angels who had the seven bowls came and said to me, ” ‘Come, I will show you the punishment of the great prostitute, who sits on many waters.

      First of all, the word prositute is used here not used literally as a woman who sells her body for money, but metaphorically as an idolatress. Israel was spoken of as commiting spiritual adultery against God by going after other god’s, that were no god’s at all, but idols. Well here, we have a false religious system masquarading as the church of Christ, but she is full of the paganism of Babylon, ergo “Mystery Babylon.” All of the false religious practices of Babylon can be found in her from the eucharist, to the image of Mary holding the child (Simaramis and Tumuz), the practice of the confessional, Mary queen of heaven (Simaramis) and on and on. Of course I am speaking about the Roman Chatholic Church (RCC).

      “She sits upon many waters”

      Well, we know from the Rev.17:15 that according to the angel, the waters that she sits on represent peoples, multitudes, nations and languages. Meaning that, her false religious system can be found on the shores of many continents. The peoples, multitudes, nations and languages represent the nations and peoples of the world. This would definitely be true of the RCC, as no matter where you go in the world, you will see this false religous system there.

      “With her the kings of the earth committed adultery and the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”

      By the kings of the earth committing adultery with her, means that they partake with her in her spiritual adultery and by so doing are benefitting from her luxuries. Have you ever noticed that, whenever the pope has visited the presidents of United States or any other country in all his pomp, that he is treated as though he is actually God’s representitive? Well, what do you think is going to happen when one of these popes begins to perform signs, miracles and wonders, even causing fire to come down out of heaven? They will share all the more in her spiritual adultery and not only because of that, but because she is making them wealthy.

      “the inhabitants of the earth were intoxicated with the wine of her adulteries.”

      This would speak of the common people who are partaking in that false religious system. I can imagine that during the great tribulation period, that these people with be involved in the catching and killing of the saints and all in the name of their religion.

      Well, it is 5am and so I will stop here. I need to finish some things up here at work before I go home. So, until the next post, God’s grace and his mercy be upon you and your family.

      Yours in Christ

  63. Morning Don,

    Hope this post reaches you well rested and fully dressed with the armor of God. Pastor Paul who claims to have 25 years in ministry has cited the 4th, 6th seal judgments to be taking place in the second 31/2 year period or during the great tribulation period. The madness continues with his quoting of scriptures that have no relevance to what he is misinterpreting in the first place.

    Thanks for your input on a revisit of chapter 13, what you wrote made a lot of sense, and it is a scenario that just might fit the bill. I’m not sure though that the covenant has Israel as a signatory, perhaps I am viewing it incorrectly, but it says “he shall make a firm covenant with many for one week:” I am seeing ‘many’ as gentiles. There is no scripture to my knowledge that details the ‘firm covenant’ has anything to do with the restoration of temple sacrifice and oblation, it is inferred. “And in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease;” it is not necessary that he should be the initiator of a covenant of any kind to break it, if he has the support of many, then he would be the one with the power to do it unchallenged. “And upon the wing of abominations shall come one that maketh desolate; and even unto the full end, and that determined, shall wrath be poured out upon the desolate.” This is a man as you said is anti-Jesus and wants to be worshiped as a God, is it too much to think that the abomination of desolation would come as a sequential act of dictatorial tendencies expressed by the Antichrist? I think that these acts of stopping the temple sacrifice and oblation warrants an assassination attempt. Look at it this way, if you have been longing to own a Hummer and someone gives you it and then crashes it, you would be upset, but not to the extent of wanting to commit murder. On the other hand, if you labored and encountered a series of challenges then you finally attained it, then comes an enemy who robs you of it, this would definitely stir up some killer instincts! I know the example is crass but I hope that it can show distinctions in human behavior.

    Regarding the Twelfth Imam, Iran’s Ahmadinejad sees himself as the Messiah who aides him, as we see in this excerpt of an article written by John von Heyking an associate professor of political science at the University of Lethbridge in Alberta, Canada. “While Ahmadinejad has not drawn an explicit connection between his desire to see Israel wiped off the map and an activist belief in the Twelfth Imam’s return, the dots are there to be connected once one understands the tyrannical “logic” behind someone who, perhaps viewing himself as a self-proclaimed deputy for the Twelfth Imam, might wish to effect Mahdi’s return.” He continued with a warning to the western world, “Western observers need to be able to understand the ideological and religious overtones of the current situation in Iran. Ahmadinejad’s peculiar references to the Twelfth Imam are no mere eccentricity to be taken lightly. Nor do they seem to be the rhetorical ploy of a politician manipulating the excitable masses (as some have interpreted Saddam Hussein’s embrace of Islamism in the later part of his rule). Minimally, Ahmadinejad’s speeches and actions portend a constitutional crisis for the Iranian regime. Maximally, there are times when one should take bombastic statements not as double-talk, but for what they are.”

    It’s a lot to fathom but I think we need to conflate scriptures with the political and social climates that exist today, if we look at where the church is headed in today’s social strata we clearly see the apostasy spoken of in scriptures. If we apply that same logic of interpretation to the Antichrist, then we use the political climate and determine that scripture has accurately prophesied he would arise from the 4th kingdom or European Union as we know it today. Soon the EU would be the superpower while America would be at the mercy of her many enemies.

    Israel/EU relations have been determined in Dec 2009, here’s an excerpt of the agreement, take note of the TIME and how some of the EU’s member nations are addressed:

    The EU and Israel committed themselves to establishing a partnership which provides for close political and mutually beneficial trade and investment relations together with economic, social, financial, civil scientific, technological and cultural cooperation.
    The Action Plan concluded with Israel helped give new energy and focus to EU-Israel relations. Its objective is to gradually integrate Israel into European policies and programmes. Every step taken is determined by both sides and the Action Plan is tailor-made to reflect Israel’s interests and priorities as well as its level of development.
    There is also, for the first time, a financial assistance element to EU-Israel cooperation – Israel is eligible for €14 million in European Community financial cooperation over the next seven years.

    EURO-MEDITERRANEAN AGREEMENT
    establishing an association between the European Communities and their Member States, of the
    one part, and the State of Israel, of the other part
    THE KINGDOM OF BELGIUM,
    THE KINGDOM OF DENMARK,
    THE FEDERAL REPUBLIC OF GERMANY,
    THE HELLENIC REPUBLIC,
    THE KINGDOM OF SPAIN,
    THE FRENCH REPUBLIC,
    IRELAND,
    THE ITALIAN REPUBLIC,
    THE GRAND DUCHY OF LUXEMBOURG,
    THE KINGDOM OF THE NETHERLANDS,
    THE REPUBLIC OF AUSTRIA,
    THE PORTUGUESE REPUBLIC,
    THE REPUBLIC OF FINLAND,
    THE KINGDOM OF SWEDEN,
    THE UNITED KINGDOM OF GREAT BRITAIN AND NORTHERN IRELAND,

    Hopefully we can continue this as a side discussion, I know it goes against the conventional thinking but I think we both know that even the scholars are wrong sometimes – just look at Pastor Paul.

    In His Grace

    Wes

  64. Greets,

    On to our substantive discussion, Revelation 17.

    Okay we have just witnessed through John’s testimony the bowl judgments and now we are going to see the details of the bowl judgments in chapters 17, 18, 19, note though one of these chapters is going to take us back to mid trib, ha ha! Let’s look at the end of chapter 16, the sixth bowl and take it from there:

    The war of the Great Day of God, the Almighty or the battle of Armageddon. The false trinity has called men to battle (three frogs), this is the early stages of God stirring up men to fulfill His purpose, men though would be thinking that they are doing things out of their own volition. The once impassable river Euphrates is now a passageway and the unbelieving world led by the false trinity have been mobilized in one place for Christ to destroy.

    Babylon, in revelations 16 is described as a great city and later it is described as false faith.

    (Rev 17:1) And there came one of the seven angels that had the seven bowls, and spake with me, saying, Come hither, I will show thee the judgment of the great harlot that sitteth upon many waters;(17:2) with whom the kings of the earth committed fornication, and they that dwell in the earth were made drunken with the wine of her fornication.(Rev 17:3) And he carried me away in the Spirit into a wilderness: and I saw a woman sitting upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns. (17:4) And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearls, having in her hand a golden cup full of abominations, even the unclean things of her fornication, (17:5) and upon her forehead a name written, MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE HARLOTS AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

    ‘The woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet, and decked with gold and precious stone and pearls,’ is describing the woman being cared for by the entity that she is serving. Who is the woman? If we look at the true faith, Jesus taught that He was a servant at the same time He was the Shepherd, in a false religion the opposite is the sheepfold or congregation serving the church head. We see in many churches today that the pastors/priests are the recipients for the most part rather that the congregation thus dishonoring the covenant of servitude. We are part of a covenant with Christ as we are called Christians, we take His title as part of ours. The false faith is one that would rob the church body and she is called Babylon the great, mother of all harlots. Being the mother, she is the originator of all harlots or the mother of the abomination of the earth which began in the garden. We must therefore ask ourselves is the RCC the originator of sin? If we say yes, then we are saying prior to the RCC there was no idolatry, and other sins that led men away from the living God.

    There has always been ONE enemy, the devil, the originator of sin. The beast is a person in time but the dragon has been around since the garden. ‘(Rev 17:6) And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. And when I saw her, I wondered with a great wonder. (17:7) And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and the ten horns.’ The beast carries the woman through the tribulation this is probably the most glaring way that the world will witness the dragon in the form of the beast that cares for the counterfeit religious system. The beast and the woman now becomes contemporaneous during the tribulation in the form of idol worship – the image being set up is an example, another example is the mark of the beast.

    (Rev 17:8) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and is about to come up out of the abyss, and to go into perdition. And they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, they whose name hath not been written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast, how that he was, and is not, and shall come.

    When was the beast – in Daniel with the abomination of desolation. When is the beast not – when he received the fatal head wound. When is the beast about to come up out of the abyss – it is the dragon that comes out of the abyss, the devil indwelling the body of the Antichrist. I believe that the dragon who cannot take out souls from Sheol would indwell the lifeless body of the Antichrist in a form of a resurrection permitted by God. Remember that the abyss is the abode of demons only, never men. The Antichrist is a man by all measure therefore when he dies his soul does not go into the abyss, in fact it is written that he and the second beast are thrown into the lake of fire while the dragon is bound in the abyss for a 1000 years.

    I’ll await your comments before delving deeper into the Mystery of Babylon.

    In His Grace,

    Wes

    • Hi Wesley,

      I thought I would comment on the last part of your post and share my understanding on this subject of the beast who, once was, now is not and yet will come.

      Your wrote:
      “When was the beast – in Daniel with the abomination of desolation. When is the beast not – when he received the fatal head wound. When is the beast about to come up out of the abyss – it is the dragon that comes out of the abyss, the devil indwelling the body of the Antichrist. I believe that the dragon who cannot take out souls from Sheol would indwell the lifeless body of the Antichrist in a form of a resurrection permitted by God. Remember that the abyss is the abode of demons only, never men. The Antichrist is a man by all measure therefore when he dies his soul does not go into the abyss, in fact it is written that he and the second beast are thrown into the lake of fire while the dragon is bound in the abyss for a 1000 years.”

      First, I wanted to clarify a few things. The Beast who once was, now is not and yet will come is in direct reference to his Abyssal status from John’s time frame:

      Who once was = At one time prior to John’s time frame, he was out of the Abyss.
      Now is not = From John’s time frame, he is currently not out in the earth, but is in the Abyss.
      And yet will come = He will be coming out again when the Abyss is opened at a later time.

      You stated that it is the “dragon” who comes up out of the Abyss.

      I find that there is a problem with the dragon being the beast that comes up out of the Abyss, because in Rev.12:7-9, the dragon was identified as Satan, which would be stating that, it is Satan who is coming up out of the Abyss and here’s the problem with that. For any angel, whether holy or fallen, a key is required to open and close the Abyss, that is, it is not a place where spirits can come and go as they please. At the 5th trumpet in Rev.9:1, we saw that in order for those demonic beings to be able to come out of the Abyss, an angel had to have a key to open it and the Abyss remains open from the blowing of the 5th trumpet until the Lord returns. Likewise, we read in Rev.20:1-3 that the same key has to be used to lock it back up. If any entity is in the Abyss, he isn’t getting out unless someone opens it up with the key. Likewise, no angel, holy or fallen, is going to get into the Abyss unless someone opens it up with the key. It is stated in Rev.12:10 that Satan accuses the brothers day and night before God in heaven and therefore, he could not be the one residing in the Abyss.

      “They had as king over them the angel of the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew is Abaddon, and in Greek, Apollyon.”

      So, these demonic beings that are let out of the Abyss at the 5th trumpet to torment men for 5 months with the sing of a scorpion, their king is that angel (beast) who is in the Abyss, whose name in Hebrew and Greek means “Destroyer.” He Can’t come out of the Abyss until the 5th trumpet blows, where that star (angel) that falls from heaven unlocks it. This is the meaning of “now is not,” that is, he is currently NOT out in the earth.

      “Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.”

      Now it changes to “And yet will come.”

      Here, after the Abyss has been opened at the 5th trumpet, first those demonic, scorpion, locusts come out, and then their king, the angel of the Abyss (beast) comes out after they do to kill the two witnesses, which would be at the middle of the seven years, since no one can kill them until their 1260 days (3 1/2 years) of prophecy have been completed. There seems to be a human beast and a demonic counterpart, who I believe will possess the human beast, who receives the fatal head wound. Also something to note in regards to the dragon being the beast of the Abyss is that, it is stated in Rev.13:4:

      “Men worshiped the dragon (Satan) because he had given authority to the beast, and they also worshiped the beast and asked, ” ‘Who is like the beast? Who can make war against him?’ ”

      So, here the dragon and beast are spoken of as two seperate entities and therefore, the dragon could not be the beast who comes out of the Abyss.

      I find no promblem with the human beast, who is possessed by the beast who comes up out of the Abyss, being thrown into the lake of fire, as well as Satan being thrown into the Abyss. I believe that this is plausible seeing that, this senario was mentioned before in the book of Daniel:

      “Then he continued, ” ‘Do not be afraid, Daniel. Since the first day that you set your mind to gain understanding and to humble youself before your God, your words were heard, and I have come in response to them. But the prince of the Persian kingdom resisted me twenty-one days. Then Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me, because I was detained there with the king of Persia.” (Dan.12-13)

      Now my point is this, the angel Gabriel is the one who was sent to give Daniel understanding, but he was detained by the prince of persia. Gabriel is a high ranking angel and therefore, a human prince of Persia could not possibly detain him. In fact, Michael the archangel had to come and help him get through, so what was he talking about? In referring to the prince of Persian who was keeping him from getting to Daniel, he was speaking of a pricipality, that is, a fallen angel who was the power behind the human prince of Persia, so what was going on with Gabriel was spiritual warfare. In fact, for all we know, this demonic prince of Persia could have been that beast who at that time would have been in the state of “once was.” Just a thought. So, using this as an example, just as there was a fallen angel who was designated as the prince of Persia, who as controlling the actions of the human Prince of Persia, so also could there be a human beast with the fallen angel counterpart controlling the human beasts activities.

      As always, I look forward to your comments and input. So, until the next post…..

      Yours in Christ

  65. Hello Don,

    Sorry for the delay, my baby daughter has been hospitalized since Friday last with a severe case of croup. My wife is staying at the hospital with her and I am taking care of the other two ages 7 and 3. She’s recovering, thanks be to God and hopefully both mom and daughter would be home soon. I have reviewed your response to my last post and it seems that I have erred somewhere.

    The beast is the Antichrist, the beast was and is not. When is the beast ‘not’ ? When he is slain. But he comes up from the abyss and goes to destruction. This person, sometime in the future comes out from the abyss and goes to destruction. What is the abyss? It is the abode of demons, never men. Who best fits this description of coming out of the abyss and goes to destruction? It’s Satan. The beast is physically dead and now indwelt by Satan, Satan and the beast are now one (false resurrection). The dead soulless body of the man who is the Antichrist is one of the seven and also one of the eight, Satan is inside the body.

    (Rev 13:3) And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast. (13:4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?….(Rev 13:8) And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.(Rev 17:8) The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (Rev 17:11) And the beast that was, and is not, even he is the eighth, and is of the seven, and goeth into perdition. I hope this clears up the unification of the dead Antichrist and Satan.

    For the destruction of the harlot we need to revisit (Rev 17:1) And there came one of the seven angels which had the seven vials, and talked with me, saying unto me, Come hither; I will shew unto thee the judgment of the great whore that sitteth upon many waters:

    Who is the harlot? It is false religion or idolatrous way of worship, soon there will be a one world religion that unites all the false religions which is destroyed by the beast thereby making him the original harlot or the mother of all harlots. Hitler had a worship of self or Aryan nation doctrine as his form of the harlot, in the end times religious groups like Mormonism, Hinduism, Buddhism etc are all part of the harlot that is being cared for by Satan. God in His infinite wisdom has pitted Satan against the false religion that Satan supports. Satan himself would destroy what he created and now God has only Satan to destroy.

    I have a question, “Now my point is this, the angel Gabriel is the one who was sent to give Daniel understanding, but he was detained by the prince of persia. Gabriel is a high ranking angel and therefore, a human prince of Persia could not possibly detain him.” Is there a future time parallel with Daniel’s day in view here?

    Looking forward to your input. Before the weekend’s out God wiling I will post again on the identity of the harlot in the last times.

    In His Grace,

    Wes

    • Hi Wesley,

      Sorry to hear about your daughter. Family is definitely more important than an immediate response, as you can respond to me any time. I will definitely keep her in prayer.

      You Wrote:
      “Who best fits this description of coming out of the abyss and goes to destruction? It’s Satan. The beast is physically dead and now indwelt by Satan, Satan and the beast are now one (false resurrection). The dead soulless body of the man who is the Antichrist is one of the seven and also one of the eight, Satan is inside the body.”

      Response:
      I guess we disagree on this issue regarding Satan being the one who is coming up out of the Abyss, because that would mean that Satan is currently bound in there, since the Abyss isn’t opened until the 5th trumpet. My point is that, the Abyss requires a key and someone to open it and since it is not opened until the 5th trumpet that would mean that Satan would be bound in there right now and would have been for over 2000 years.

      What I do believe is that this beast called Abaddon/Apollyon (Destroyer) who once was, now is not and yet will come who is called Abaddon/Apollyon (Destroyer) is another fallen angel, a seperate entity from Satan. The phrase (once was) means that he was at one time out of the Abyss, (now is not) means that he is currently in the Abyss and (yet will come) means that he will come out again and that is what I believe we are seeing at the 5th trumpet.
      “They had as a king over them the angel of the Abyss.” In short, if we are to make the claim that the beast of the Abyss is Satan, then that would mean that Satan is and has been bound in the Abyss for over 2000 years and I don’t believe that. I believe that Satan is alive and well on planet earth.

      You Wrote:
      “I have a question, “Now my point is this, the angel Gabriel is the one who was sent to give Daniel understanding, but he was detained by the prince of persia. Gabriel is a high ranking angel and therefore, a human prince of Persia could not possibly detain him.” Is there a future time parallel with Daniel’s day in view here?

      Response:
      The point I was making is that, when Gabriel said that the “prince of Persia” detained him, he was not speaking about the human prince of Persia, but the demonic counter part who was controlling the human prince of Persia, for a human prince could not detain an angel. In the same way, there is a human beast (antichrist) and a demonic counter part who will come up out of the Abyss and who will be the power behind the human beast. Any time there is war going on between nations, there are also angelic beings (holy and fallen) waring behind the scenes.

      I hope that your daughter is well soon. God’s grace and his mercy be yours.

      Yours in Christ

  66. Hi Don,

    Peace and God’s blessings to you. Thank you for your prayers and well wishes, my baby is recovering and hopefully both mom and baby would be home later today.

    Regarding our take on Satan coming out from the abyss, we are not disagreed. The point I was attempting to make was to identify Satan as THE evil entity that is unified with the beast after he (beast) was slain. By demonstrating Satan coming out from the abyss it was to highlight that it was Satan himself who was indwelling the beast (false resurrection) after the mortal head wound. His coming out from the abyss was looking at post 1,000 year millennial reign to identify Satan as the beast resurrected.

    (Rev 17:7) And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou wonder? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and the ten horns.

    Throughout history the woman has taken many forms, in Gen it was the ‘lie’ and generations hence Satan has been the power behind the scene of many kingdoms. The authority which he ruled by was the woman or harlot,(systems of government) as I mentioned before; Hitler’s woman was the Aryan nation doctrine – this was a from of the harlot. In the future this woman or harlot would take the form of a sequential kings. (Rev 17:9) Here is the mind that hath wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains, on which the woman sitteth:(17:10) and they are seven kings; the five are fallen, the one is, the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a little while.

    These kings are different from the seven kings that the beast is the leader of, which are contemporary, starting from 10 then the little horn (beast) conquers 3 and 7 are left. The woman is riding the beast with 7 heads now, before she was riding the lion, the bear, the tiger. The last beast she is now on is different, he is the resurrected Antichrist who is last leader of the last kingdom. Simply put; the woman or harlot is being cared for by her creator the Dragon. The five fallen are those former rulers of the 4th kingdom prior to John’s revelations. The one is, is the Antichrist as mortal man (the 6th). The other is not yet come – is the resurrected Antichrist (Satan indwelt) (the 7th), and when he cometh, he must continue a little while. This is the period of rule by the Dragon in the form of the Antichrist for 3 1/2 years. Confirmation of this is seen in (Rev 17:11) And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goeth into perdition.

    The Antichrist is the 8th king out of 10, while the resurrected Antichrist that the whole world wonders after is the 7th overall leader of the 4th kingdom. I’m gonna stop here for now so that you can get a chance to review and perhaps clear up with a different explanation.

    In His Grace,

    Wes

  67. Hello Don,

    Just a short note to let you know that both baby and mom are back at home and doing well, all thanks be to God!

    Have not heard from you for a while, been checking out some of the other blogs and have not found your presence there for a while either. I pray everything is alright with you and I look forward to hearing from you soon.

    God Bless,

    Wes

    • Hi Wesley,

      So happy to hear that your daughter is back home and doing well. Haven’t seen much of Paul lately, aw darn! Some time ago, I sent Henry the following Scripture where Jesus mentions a way of escape from the things that are coming upon the whole earth:

      “For it will come upon all those who live on the face of the whole earth. Be always on the watch, and pray that you may be able to escape all that is about to happen, and that you may be able to stand before the Son of Man.” (Luke 21:35-36)

      I sent him this and explained that, Jesus here in this verse, which is Luke’s version of Matthew 24, is revealing that there is a way of escape from all of the things that will be coming upon the face of the whole earth. Henry wrote back and tried to explain that Jesus’ escape might be likened to the following verse:

      ” And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.”

      In the KJV, it says “provide a way of escape.” I wrote Henry back and said, that there was no way that you compare God making a way of escape from temptation compared to escaping the wrath of God which will be poured out upon the whole earth. It was a very weak attempt to say the least. People don’t understand that, what is going to
      be happening will not be your common persecution and tribulation by men and the powers of darkness, but will be God pouring out his wrath upon the people of the whole earth and therefore, there will be no place to escape or hide. I keep referring back to what Isaiah said regarding the wrath part of the day of the Lord:

      “I will make man more scarce than pure gold, more scarce than the gold of Ophir.”

      And Jesus echoed the same when he said:

      “Except those days were shortened no one would survive, but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.”

      Further more, at the end of Paul’s discription of the resurrection and catching away, he says “Therefore, comfort one another with these words.” There would be no comfort for the church if it was to go through the wrath of God as well as the beast waging war and conquering the church. The comfort that he was speaking of was what he just got done outlining, which
      was the dead in Christ rising first then we who are still alive and remaining being caught up to meet the Lord in the air and going back to the Father’s house. It seems to me that these people are more concerned about protecting their view or what they’ve been taught, than being concerned about what is Scripturally correct. There is a reason why it says that the beast was given authority to conquer the “Saints” (Hagios) instead of the “Church” (Ekklesia) and that being, because the church is gone after the end of chapter 3, where the designation changes to “Saints.”

  68. Greets Don,

    It’s a blessing to have you back, thanks for your prayers for my baby. Our friend Paul joined in on a blog I posted “Pre Trib Rapture is Scripturally Sound.” He quoted his famous verse (1Tim 4:1) to begin his usual condemnation. The discussion went on about salvation, I took the side of a true Christian cannot lose his salvation because God is the author. I cited the sinful/disobedient lives of the Patriarchs and even the disciples and showed him that they did not lose theirs. He claimed Judas was not saved, I countered that Jesus had declared Judas as a devil to begin with.

    He quoted (Rev 22: 18-19) and tried to convince me that it is possible to have your name removed from the book of life? I explained to him that no man has a full understanding of the bible and we would come across new interpretations etc that may cause us to re-evaluate our position that we had, this does not mean that we are taking or adding anything, it simply means that we are growing in knowledge of the Word. He somehow believes that men have an input in salvation and if a wrong doctrine is taught it can result in the persecution of millions? I cited (Rev 13:8) and went on to explain to him that once you are called to faith and you accept that call, you trust in God for guidance for ALL aspects of your life, bear in mind that you are now two halves – a new spirit and a corrupted body, so there is always need for repentance. I added that the apostasy of the church should be rejoiced over. He said that I am burying my head in the sand and said his goodbyes.

    As for Henry, I’ve been following your comments on some of his blogs and you’re right the need for his doctrine to be right outweighs the scriptural interpretation for the most part. All my life I heard ” And God is faithful; he will not let you be tempted beyond what you can bear. But when you are tempted, he will also provide a way out so that you can stand up under it.” & I have always understand it to mean the temptation we face as Christians in our walk and being faithful to the path before us knowing that God will deliver us from that which He knows we cannot bear.

    I think one major issue with Henry and Paul’s doctrine is that they have not made the distinction between the Church and the Saints: Christians are believers during the church age; while Saints are believers outside the church age. Henry refers to the “souls” as being part of the church saints that would be raptured when the 6th seal is opened, while Paul believes that the rapture will take place somewhere between the 4th – 6th seal. Neither has paid any attention to the term “souls” which denotes un-resurrected bodies. While the rapture clearly details the translation from the immortal, perishable, corrupted body to a moral, imperishable, uncorrupted body which shall take place in a twinkling of an eye. Scriptures say nothing of the first resurrection taking place just as Christ is returning to fulfill the 7th bowl judgment.

    I suspect that they have both interpreted the 5th seal to be a bowl judgment somehow. It’s the little things that escapes the interpretation; like – “after these things”, “souls”, “have fulfilled their course” etc. Eph 3:9 Paul (the apostle) revealed the mystery of the church that God kept for a period of dispensation, when that period ends the church shall be removed and the purpose of Revelations would be the focus. The 70th week, the last 7 years, the tribulations whatever it is most comforting to be called is by far and large for the nation of Israel. I am not saying the Gentile world would not be affected, the bible clearly shows that God, for a time would have things in place to afford salvation. But the 70th week is as it says in (Dan 9:24) for the nation of Israel, (Jer 30:7) reflects much of same. These two verses seem to escape the attention of Henry and Paul, they are bent on Christians suffering through the 7 years of tribulations! They have even put the role of the restrainer on the Arc Angel Michael, Paul (the apostle) said that the mystery of lawlessness is already at work and there is one that restrains him now (paraphrasing), if this is Michael, then who throws the devil down to earth? Has God elevated Michael above the Holy Spirit? Did the role of comforter switch to Michael? Are Christians indwelt by Michael? Michael undoubtedly has an important function, but it is vastly different from that of the Holy Spirit.

  69. Hello Don,

    Just wanted to wish you God’s blessings.

    Wesley

    • Hi Wesley! Isn’t this fun?! I have been contending for the word of God with both Paul and Henry.
      Personally, I don’t see the point of continuing, because for one, Paul is set in his belief and will not
      consider any Scripture that you give him. Case in point, he continues to refer to the abomination of desolation
      as the antichrist himself, while both Daniel and Revelation describe it as an image. Henry seems to be open
      to possibilities, so that is good. I don’t pretend to know every single thing about the word of God, but when
      someone is wrong about something that I do know about, I will content for it. Paul keeps insisting that
      Mt.24:31 is the rapture. The problem that I have with that is, that it states that the Son of Man sends out his
      angels and they gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of heave to the other. Angels do not
      resurrect and catch us up! The word says that, the Lord will descend from heaven with a shout and with the voice
      of the archangel and the trumpet call of God and the dead in christ will rise first, then we which remain and are alive
      will be caught up with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air, not angels. He needs to go read the
      parable of the wheat and the weeds so that he will understand that, those that the angels are gathering are those
      who were left of the “one take, one left” group. The weeds, which are taken first to be killed, are just
      not mentioned in that particular verse, only the wheat is mentioned.

      How have things been going anyway? I have been fighting with alergies for the last 2 weeks and they are now
      getting better. I’m tired of being tired! Anyway, good to hear from you. I will talk to you later.

      May God bless you and keep you and enable you to stand.

    • Greetings Wesley!

      Hope all is well with you and your family. I see that you have been back and forth with Henry and Paul. I understand what Paul is proclaiming, but I have to throw it out, because there are
      too many conflicts with what he is proposing. For example, in Comparing Mt.24:29 with Rev.6:12-17

      “Immediately after the distress of those days ‘the sun will be dardened, and the moon will not give its light;
      the stars will fall from the sky, and the heavenly bodies will be shaken.’ ” (Mt.24:29)

      “I watched as he opened the sixth seal. There was a great earthquake. The sun turned black like sackcloth made of
      goat hair, the whole moon turned blood red, and the stars in the sky fell to earth, as late figs drop from a fig tree when
      shaken by a strong wind.” (Rev.6:12-13)

      Now, I do believe that these two listed above are the same event, but Matthew’s version of it has the time of great distress marked by the
      setting up of the abomination that causes desolation, with the event of the sun, moon and stars taking place 3 1/2 years later and we know
      this because, Dan.9:27 confirms that the abomination is set up in the middle of the seven, which leaves 3 1/2 years until Christ returns.
      The verse that confirms this is the time that it is said that the beast is given authority over the saints, which is specified as 42 months,
      which is another way of saying 3 1/2 years.

      Now, on the other hand, if we look at the same prophecy in Revelation, it has the event of the sun, moon and stars taking place
      at the 6th seal. First, I should be clear that, these verses, in my opinion are not regarding Christs return for the resurrection and catching
      away, but they represent the end of the age, that is, Christs return to the earth to set up his millennial kingdom following the pouing out of the seventh
      bowl judgment, which presents another problem that I will get to in a bit. So, in continueing, the verse in Rev.16:12-13 puts the return of Christ
      after the 6th seal is opened, but the problem is, after that, we have the 7th seal yet to be opened, seven trumpets yet to be blown and
      seven bowls yet to be poured out.

      Pastor Paul is looking at this event listed here in Matthew and Revelation as the resurrection and catching away, citing that Mt.24:31, where
      Jesus says:

      “They will see the Son of Man coming on the clouds of the sky, with power and great glory. And he will send his angels with a loud
      trumpet call, and they will gather his elect from the four winds, from one end of the heavens to the other.”

      The problem I have with this being the resurrection and catching away is that, angels do not collect those who are resurrected and caught up.
      1Thes.4:16 says:

      “For [the Lord himself] will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of he archangel and with the trumpet call of God,
      and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds
      [to meet the Lord in the air].

      Those that the angels are collecting are the “Wheat” of the “One taken, one left” group, the “Wheat” being those who will be left after the “Weeds”
      are taken first to be killed by the double-edged sword that procedes from his mouth in Rev. 19:15 & 21. Furthor more, those that the angels are
      collecting are the saints who will still be alive in there mortal bodies and will have made it through the great tribulation period until Christs return.
      Also, Paul’s scenario puts the church through the time when the beast will be ruling, as well as putting us through all of the wrath of God, which
      we are not appointed to. The 3 1/2 years from the time that the abomination is set up, will run tandem with God’s wrath that will have already been
      started prior to the setting up of that abomination. The results of the first four seals is 25% of the earth’s population being killed and I’d have to say that
      constitutes God’s wrath. If anyone has any question as to whether the seals can be regarded as God’s wrath, just remember, Jesus is the one
      that is opening the seals, not the beast! The authority given to the beast to conquer the saints for 3 1/2 years is a product of God’s wrath as well.
      Both henry and Paul, like to seperate the tribulation and the wrath of God, but the fact is that, once the wrath of God begins, it will continue all the way
      through, up until the 7th bowl is poured out, which completes the three sets of seven judgments, then Christ returns to set up his kingdom.

      The problem that I find, is that, Matthew has the sun, moon and stars event taking place 3 1/2 years after the abomination is set up in the temple,
      which is correct, where Revelation has this event taking place at the 6th seal and prior to the description of the abomination found in Rev.13:14-15.
      The only difference regarding the mention of these two verses between Matthew and Revelation is that, in matthew it has the “moon not giving its light” and
      in Revelation, it has “the moon turning blood red.”

      Another problem that I have with Paul is that, even when you provide Scriptural proof, he will not acknowledge it, which is why I stopped corresponding.
      When you get to a point where you can show undeniable proof of what you are proclaiming and the other person doesn’t give answer to it, beut just ignores it,
      then it becomes obvious that, he is not conerned about the truth, but is only concerned about proving his point of view. Case in point, I have corrected him several
      times regarding the nature of the abomination of desolation and that being, that it is not a “He.” The word of God is clear on this point, that the abomination both by the
      word used for abomination “bdelugma,” which according to Vine’s denotes an [object] of disgust, also denoting imagry, that is, idolatry. Further more,
      even though the phrase abomination is not used, Rev.13:14-15 gives us a description of the abomination as being an image that is made by the inhabitants
      of the earth at the command of the false prophet. yet, even after bringing this information to Paul’s attention, he continues to refer to the abomination
      as the beast himself. Is it true that the beast will sit in the temple of God, showing himself to be God, yes, but he himself is not the abomination, but it is
      that image that is made in honor of him that will be set up in the temple, which causes the desolation of Jerusalem.

      There is one more thing that he mentioned. He said that it was the saints (church) who are the fourth that are killed at the 4th Seal (pale horse), but the
      problem with that is the same problem that Paul has with all of his interpretations and that is, he doesn’t pay attention to the details. Let’s look at the verse
      in question:

      “When the Lamb opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the forth living creature say, ‘Come!’ I looked, and there before me was a pale horse!
      Its rider was named Death, and and [Hades] was following close behind him. They were given power over a fourth of the earth to kill by sword, famine
      and plague, and by the wild beasts of the earth.”

      Now, who is following close to Death? Hades is, which means that the fourth that will be killed are not the saints (church), because those who die in Christ do not
      go into Hades, but only the unfaithful, those who reject Christ go into Hades. To be present in the body is to be absent from the Lord and to be
      absent from the body is to be in the presence of the Lord. The place where the rich man, Lazarus and Abraham occupied no longer holds the saints of
      God. The inhabitants of Hades consists of the unfaithful, Christ rejecting souls and not saints. Therefore, since death kills a fourth of the earth’s
      population and it is said that Hades is following close behind, these are the unsaved, unrighteous and not church as Paul has proclaimed.

      Anyway, just wanted to say hello and mention a few things and now it is time for me to sleep, as I have to work tomorrow. I believe that we should
      still consider him as a brother in the Lord, but as far as his interpretations go, I find too many things wrong with them and therefore, I cannot be
      in agreement with him on those things. Now, if was Hank Hennigraff, then I would say that, he boarders on a false christian, because he claims in
      his book that, all that the seals, trumpets and bowl judgments are to be looked upon as hyperbole (exerated and not to be taken literally), as poetry
      and symbolic. I believe that this would constitute taking away from the word of the prophecy from that book (See Rev.22:18-19).


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